Jeff Vogel Respons To Critics Regarding His Newest Game

ChienAboyeur said:

RPG as a genre is dying and developpers aim at developping games in other genres while still maintaining their credentials and public windows as RPG developpers.

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Only because you repeat that opinion in every post does not make it true.

Dasale said:

Not consider all the major fundamental approach difference between a game like Avadon and a game like DAO is an incredible point of view.

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I read the thread and if the arguments brought in are facts (which I believe they are as people do not repell them) then yes, this developper wants to adopt a Bioware approach within its own means.

Avadon is turn based, most often all members are fully controlled, can I quote this argument makes no sense?

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Of course, you can, especially as I took time to () if involved. Even when AI is not involved, health as an asset fast to recover is extremely convenient for developpers as it removes the necessity to implement fillers between times of low health and time of high health.

Quick to recover health allow streaks of 'epic' battles, fielding bigger and bigger monsters. It changes totally the perspective on battles, exploration and all.

It becomes all about adding even more to the previous state with no consideration of how managing the transition between battles.

While exploring a dungeon, no question about jeopardizing health on a petty battle as a much lethaler danger might lurk somewhere in the dungeon. No more wearing down, no more attrition.

It is all about ensuring that the next monster will be bigger to bring climax in intensity.

DA2 illustrates quite well the principle with its waves system.

Roi Danton said:

Only because you repeat that opinion in every post does not make it true.

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I wish that could be the case. But as the situation evolves independently of me...

Dasale said:

I don't understand what you mean but I clearly understand you choose the maximum resolution possible. That's a wrong idea. This is possible but will make details too small. It's not a 3D game ie when you increase the resolution you don't just improve the dpi, in this game the graphics have a static size so a higher resolution will make them smaller on your monitor.

You should better search a compromise to use a lower resolution and have the view of a game area large enough. And you should start from lowest to less low resolution.

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Hmm, well I choose 1280x1024 which is default for my screen. I guess I should have chosen 640x480, but since LCD screens don't look good in their none-native resolutions... I had assumed he would scale up the graphics to work on higher resolutions.

I was actually able to read the skills screen, but I only saw 4 basic attributes and a skills tree with a few skills all related to combat? perhaps you were able to see the none combat skills in your much lower resolution? or perhaps I just don't know where to click ?

Not the most fortunate reaction to criticism.
Quite a lot of people from RPGCodex like and supported his other titles, so it´s kinda natural they´re disappointed when it seems Avadon has "shifted alliances".
Jeff also cherry picked the most throwaway comments and left most of the actual criticism (some of which has been voiced here as well) unaddressed.
I think he may be needlessly alienating quite significant chunk of his fan base with the article.
Still, even though I don´t think he went the right way about it, it must have taken some balls to address criticism this relatively directly and an interesting discourse may come out of it.

ChienAboyeur said:

RPG as a genre is dying

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Don´t think so.
If speaking strictly about AAA titles, the genre may have gotten simplified throughout the years, but that´s old news - when Ultima 7 came out it was often called dumbed down compared to Ultima V and when I´ve played Baldur´s Gate 2 I remember thinking how awfully streamlined the game was compared to, say, Ultima Underworld 2, Realms of Arkania 2 or Wizardry 7.
So yep, as mainstream gains on volume, AAA titles are loosing challenge or complexity or whatever.

However, compared to, say, 2006, I think that situation is overall pretty good for RPGs nowadays.
I don´t think there´s any decline on action-y RPGs front, thanks to the "middle/AA" devs like Piranha Bytes, Larian or CDProjekt. And Obsidian even made a very multifaceted AAA RPG last year.
And with relative success of Knights of the Chalice and Age of Decadence, Dead State or Frayed Knights on the horizon, I think there might be revival of turn based RPGs incoming as well.

The genre does not stand or fall by Bioware and it´s not like Dragon Age 2, or Arcania for that matter, were glaring successes.

I dont look at the issue through the lens of AAA productions, dumbing down flawed analysis, the past was the paradise (that never was) or the number of games labelled as RPG.

I just look at the issue through the support the computer means offer to RP and that is all. Seeing this genre progressing or not dying grows suddenly tougher.

ChienAboyeur said:

I dont look at the issue through the lens of AAA productions, dumbing down flawed analysis,

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Neither do I, necessarily. I also dislike the simplistic "dumbed down!!" claims and streamlining being almost always coupled with negative connotations.

I just used the arbitrary AAA/AA/indie division to support my point.
As in, RPG is a genre full of facets and while the multifacetedness sorta waned throughout the years when it comes to the more AAA productions, I think that overall it actually experiences quite a revival recently, mainly thanks to "smaller" players in the market (well, admittedly, some of this stems from assumption Age of Decadence, Dead State and Frayed Knights will be finished and will, ehm, rule). There still seems to be audience big enough to make lower budget, more "RPG-y" titles viable from the financial standpoint.
I remember Urquhart quite recently speaking about a possibility to make Icewind Dale 3 for example (I actually suspect Obsidian uses Dungeon Siege 3 to sorta test their engine to make a more complex RPG with it afterwards), then there´s the isometric project courtesy of Larian, etc.
Roguelikes still seem to be going fairly strong.

It´s entirely possible I misunderstand your point though, admittedly some of your posts are a bit cryptic for me (though I often tend to agree with those I understand).

Icewind Dale 3 potential production ensures nothing. More products labelled as RPGs or setting new definitions of RPG change nothing at all.

If Portal 2 was called Baldur's Gates 3, it wouldnt make it a RPG.

GothicGothicness said:

Hmm, well I choose 1280x1024 which is default for my screen. I guess I should have chosen 640x480, but since LCD screens don't look good in their none-native resolutions… I had assumed he would scale up the graphics to work on higher resolutions.

I was actually able to read the skills screen, but I only saw 4 basic attributes and a skills tree with a few skills all related to combat? perhaps you were able to see the none combat skills in your much lower resolution? or perhaps I just don't know where to click ?

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I doubt the game is compatible with 640*480, in fact my screen and video card and OSX can support lower resolution than 1280x1024 but for me the game lowest are 1024*768 or 1024*640. So you are probably already using the lowest definition.

For the font size I quote the recent update release (Mac version) includes an option to use bigger characters in some panels.

Avernum series hadn't much non combat skills, only Luck, Nature, Tool and First Aid. In Avadon there's only an Unlock skill allowing spend less lockpick to unlock. This skill is in same tree/panel than other, and only for Sorceress and Shadowwalker.

ChienAboyeur said:

I read the thread and if the arguments brought in are facts (which I believe they are as people do not repell them) then yes, this developper wants to adopt a Bioware approach within its own means…

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Lol you put your faith into codex posts? Lol. Ok play at least the demo and hate it yourself before allow you spite on it. You make us lost time by commenting games you don't play.

I'm still playing the demo, and I've been holding off on commenting until I have a really good feel for the game.

But so far the only thing thats bothered me is how you press i for inventory, but then you close it with escape. Considering I'm trying to see lockpicks just a few pixels across then have to use i to see whats on the ground would be good to have i open AND close inventory. But I understand thats just the way the engines always been.

Playing on Torment has been fine. Almost had my sorcereress friend die once. And when I killed the barbarian who thought he'd killed a pact memeber I felt genuinely sorry for him, and went back to try to free the guy redbeard trapped.

I think I'm going to turn against the pact! Is Breaking someone NOT torture, in its own right?

Considering recent AAA rpgs have had no emotional response from me at all, I'd say this is an excellent RPG. Just need more time to play it!

Good to hear. The emotional connection for me is what makes and RPG. If it's got that, I might be able to over look the no-death thing!

blatantninja said:

Good to hear. The emotional connection for me is what makes and RPG. If it's got that, I might be able to over look the no-death thing!

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ever considered reading books?

SirJames said:

…
But so far the only thing thats bothered me is how you press i for inventory, but then you close it with escape. Considering I'm trying to see lockpicks just a few pixels across then have to use i to see whats on the ground would be good to have i open AND close inventory. But I understand thats just the way the engines always been…

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I can't count the number of game that forget implement such obvious feature, x key open y panel then x again close y panel, obvious and clear and any player want it even if it's not what will kill a game.

But on this point the design flaw isn't this missing feature it's that few important items are too difficult to quote with your eyes, in fact the problem is with the lockpicks.

But if you spend your time to open and close the inventory to check on ground what your eyes haven't seen, you'll probably waste a bit of your fun. If you can, try use a big monitor and a not to high resolution, it helps a lot to see items without to have to open the inventory. This wont solve the lockpick problem but you'll quote much better all other items and most lockpicks are close to another item that isn't trash and which is easier to quote. Also this will makes more smooth and pleasant the exploration if you give yourself a break about that open/close inventory to check any corner more safely.

Yes it's a game engine feature, an original approach but now the graphics have evolved and since many Spiderweb games the view is a bit closer and more detailed, so this has become in my opinion a weak feature, but it's not new to Avadon, it's coming from last Avernum games.

That said if Jeff change this design and remove this approach, he will get assault by ton of whiners, the chance is Jeff has enough b…..k to not care and do want he wants, the best approach if you ask me.

SAGO said:

ever considered reading books?

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You really think people will believe you if you pretend reading books?

Dasale said:

Lol you put your faith into codex posts? Lol. Ok play at least the demo and hate it yourself before allow you spite on it. You make us lost time by commenting games you don't play.

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I have not commented the game by itself. I questioned the direction of independent developpers. Whether they are to provide diversity, fill the holes between AAA productions for bulimic players, waiting into the antichamber of mainstream production before accessing to the next stage.

Why should I not believe what is reported there? There are at least two threads on the game, and various posters reported same game features to support their argumentation. It leads me to believe that indeed the features they reported are in the game and as it supports their argumentation...

Nothing about hate by the way.

Dasale said:

I doubt the game is compatible with 640*480, in fact my screen and video card and OSX can support lower resolution than 1280x1024 but for me the game lowest are 1024*768 or 1024*640. So you are probably already using the lowest definition.

For the font size I quote the recent update release (Mac version) includes an option to use bigger characters in some panels.

Avernum series hadn't much non combat skills, only Luck, Nature, Tool and First Aid. In Avadon there's only an Unlock skill allowing spend less lockpick to unlock. This skill is in same tree/panel than other, and only for Sorceress and Shadowwalker.

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So it more or less only has combat skills….. well…. that's not good for an RPG IMHO.

I meant I can't see the NPC and PC characters not the font the font was fine. Everything else is so darned small though…….

ChienAboyeur said:

Reading the thread, it appears this developper wants to be in the antichamber of main stream gaming.

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And you don't comment the game? (on a fallacious base) Chhh, give me some air.

I don't understand this increasing base of lovers of codex coming at the watch. Why they loose their time here at the watch? Go participate codex if you like it that much and let some Internet area free of this crap.

I read a comment on a developper related to its position on the gaming market, not the game. So yep, I did not comment on the game.

ChienAboyeur said:

I read a comment on a developper related to its position on the gaming market, not the game. So yep, I did not comment on the game.

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Lol, this comment isn't from you, it's someone you don't know, making this assumption from playing a part of Avadon, and you take it as a fact, and you glue defend this position and pretend it's not related to a game you didn't played? Nice joke. If you really want debate give yourself the tools and don't roleplay a sheep repeating someone else comment.

EDIT: And about people repeating the same comment, particularly in codex it's an old trick, and an advice take that with a lot of salt. First there's plenty sheep behavior, second particularly at codex, members like roleplay parrots it reinforce their feeling to be a part of a gang. And that make them feel stronger and more right.