Traditional gender roles and why are they cool and sexy.

@ CrazyLoon

Ah, I'm very sorry. The part about being disapointing remind me of someone else, and made me feel kind of confused all of a sudden. And I do remember now, I'm sorry. I just had a lapse because my brain was sure you were someone else who said something very similar to me, before.

I know. It is selfish. However, it isn't it also selfish for others to expect us to renounce to our dreams so they can keep enjoying theirs, or because our dreams would hurt them or their own?

The difference between the right hand and the left hand, at the end of the day, is about whether the individual should be sacrificed for the whole or the whole for the individual. And both, no matter how we see them, are shades of gray, not white and black.

And if one of them lacks the right to do so, the same does the other. So this is the kind of situation where you can only pick the one you feel comfortable with and go grom there, I believe.

It seems it is impossible to move through life without hurting people. You can decide, I will hurt as few as reasonably possible, but you can never say, I will hurt no one. Sooner or later you will have to hurt someone to reach for what you desire, or be you hurt when you renounce to it so that someone else reach for what she or he desires, and what right had she to hurt you to reach her dream when you had not the right to hurt her to reach yours?

However, one should also be brutally honest with herself. Like, am I renouncing to this out of my own will and nothing else, or am I renouncing to this because I'm scared, or it is easier to just renounce, or to have an excuse to be sad, etc? Most people, and that does not leave me or anyone outside, usually finds the later ones to be the truth, and the reasons to be just excuses. And I think it is kind of sad.

No problem, miss. And fair enough. I would like to apologize for being rude, miss. And just before this gets mushy…






































I lied.

I'm of the opinion that if someone should sacrifice himself for the whole, it's not because he's renouncing his desires, it's because he's found greater value in the benefit of his friends, family, community or what have you, than in whatever self-centred ambitions he might have. In the first place there's no such thing as acting altruistically; we are all egoists and act accordingly. Thus I don't understand how "you either obtain what you lust after or are destroyed, if possible destroying everything else with you" is at all a unique mentality. Assuming the "left hand" ideology doesn't explicitly entail Hedonism or draw a line between desire and lust somehow, it seems to me everyone is left-handed.

@ Dminorkey

The left hand is the ideology behind that. Being Hedonist or Individualist doesn't cut it, there's an entire philosophical, religious, and one could even say moral body of knowledge about it. Basicaly it is the KKKodex to the Watch: Each culture, society, civilization, philosophy, etc, spawn an entity directly opposed to itself that embodies the original ideals of the Left Hand of God, the hand of destruction and chaos, by means of shaping itself not only to glorify individualism but to worship that idea of self uber alles by means of practizing every taboo the host society has, breaking every rule, going beyond every limit. It's the yin to the yang, the shiva to the brahma, etc.

Regardless of what society you look into there was always a small group of people who pursued the Left Hand instead of the Right Hand. The followers of the Ashma Daeva in ancient persia, the sons of set in ancient egypt, etc. You could call it the dark side of spirituality, a spirituality based on conflict and defiance of everything (society, morality, culture, the world, the gods, etc) and in pursuing the promise of ultimate, god like power not by worshiping gods from a position of weakness but by following the examples set by heroic gods and demons: Examples of action, of thought, and, again, of heroism.

Most people believe them to be monsters because they act for heroism and defiance itself, not for morality. But there's an entire body of thought behind such activity.



@ CrazyLoon

So mean with cute little me. I'll go cry in the corner, that'll teach you.

@ WWoL

Add Nietzsche to your reading list, you won't be disappointed.

But if there is so much knowledge to those two ways of life, how can one pursue either without the actual knowledge of it? Who is someone who simply lives and doesn't care about some label of some philosophy of a way of life someone thought up?

@Witch
I wouldn't call backing off being a pussy. It was a tactical withdrawal of sort, but I do concede yes, men are in constant conflict.

One event when I was 18 do stand out to make me who I am, an older cousin of mine who got into an argument with one of my uncles. I remember living under the same roof when we studied abroad together and witnessed my uncle totally assaulting him with verbal words that I found shocking at 18.

Here's a 40 year old telling a 27 year old to disappear and get out of his house. If I were him, I'd left…wait things out to reconcile. Days, weeks, I waited for him to come back to the same room we shared. He never did. He called back a month later to take all his clothes, dumped it in his car trunk and moved away for good.

For a decade later, he never met any of the family during Christmas or New Year or attend family gatherings. It was strength, I feel. The ability to sever your family connection just like that. We kept in touch through email and had dinners in every 3-4 months but the fact remains, aside from me, he never talked to anyone else.

I dare not ask him about it, but I think it's strength to let go like that. He's married and happy without the family bullshit he had to endure. During family gatherings the rest of the family would go butthurt about cousin Peter who simply disappeared. Calls when unanswered. And they are amazed when I told him he's alive, happy and kept in touch with me.

Was he a coward? I don't think so. What he did was brave. Something I could never do myself.

I agree with your "review" of your cousin.
It does need strength to cut existing bonds, especially family bonds, and the insight to notice that you need to cut them for your own good.

Then again, the way you describe it makes it seem it was between him and your uncle, not the whole family, yet he seems to hold a grudge against all of them.

Well. I didn't want to push him for explanation on that, but I think he was pissed nobody took his side. He didn't say it. He just refer to my uncle as 'that asshole.' Everyone wanted him to reconcile, but there was no apology forthcoming at all. In fact, the whole trigger was a puny 'you parked on the WRONG side of the road AGAIN. WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PETER! GTFO MY HOUSE IF U CAN'T FOLLOW MY RULE' followed with pushing and shoving, my cousin simply told him to keep calm as he grab the car keys and left.

Keep in mind, this isn't the first time either, but it was pretty much the worst.

In fact, last Xmas Eve, that same uncle was giving a speech about how 'unforgiving and illogical' that nephew of his was. I felt compelled to speak out but decided to just leave it at 'He still talks to me like a normal person. I guess he didn't like being pushed around.'

I wanted to remind everyone that it was my uncle's fault, but nobody seemed to understand that. Being the sole minority sucked balls, but what can you do? At least he didn't have to put up with that bullshit and pretend nothing is wrong.

Hah. I even managed to persuade my dad that traditional gender roles are meaningless in and of themselves; it's what works best for specific people that matters. KKKodex reactionaries are as dumb and harmful as usual.

I don't think your cousin's strong, I think he's a stubborn idiot. Who the hell cuts off the entire family for 10 years because of one hot-blooded uncle? I mean, it's your family, hello? And well, severing ties is hard, sure, but seeking reconciliation is infinitely harder. Being "strong" is as much about being able to compromise and forgive, as it is about standing your ground.

@ Dminorkey

Seeking compromise is always the reaction of the weak. If you compromise your dreams, what's the point of being alive? Just shot your brain out already and be done with it. If you betray your dreams for morality, for ideologies, for emotions, for compassion, or for anything else you just betrayed your very being to forces alien to yourself, who care nothing for yourself.

@ RK47

You are, again, thinking of retreating in physical terms, not in conceptual or ideal terms. I meant retreat as in surrendering your soul to something alien to yourself, be it physical or spiritual or intelectual. If you leave a battle just to strike back from the shadows when no one's expecting you and burn your enemies' families alive while feeding on their still crying children, go ahead. That's just being smart about victory.

If you retreat to abandon the conflict itself, to compromise and live a life other than that you wanted to live, then you are defeated and undeserving of breath. Do you think what your Cousin did was easy for him? Do you think he never misses his family, that he never has second thoughts about answering those calls? By staying true to his will, arbitrary and capricious, and ignoring all influences external to himself he's doing exactly what I'm talking about. Only his will, and his dream, matters. The wills and wants of others can go screw themselves while parachuting into a piranha infested amazonian river.

@ Witch

Seeking compromise can be a much more powerful way to progress towards your dreams than being a stubborn, uncompromising, unforgiving fuck your entire life. No successful man today reached where he was by never cooperating, never giving his competitors an inch of ground. Even the entire concept of state (versus anarchy) is founded on massive-scale compromise between groups of people, and look how much our life standards are improved as a result. Ideology, morality and compassion aren't opposed to achieving one's dreams; they're perhaps the prime catalyst to doing so.

@ Dminorkey

Society itself limits your actions and dreams, that's why the left hand always weakens and hurt society just by existing. And I'm not talking about small and retarded dreams like having more money or sleeping with that hot guy or professional success, those are stupid meaningless anecdotes. I'm talking of dreams, true dreams, the ones that go against the very soul of society, of culture, of nature, and of God. The dreams you have to destroy something just to make space for, the dreams you have to feed with blood and chaos because they will not grow otherwise.

Again, I'm not talking about socially accepted dreams. I'm talking about those dreams built upon the foundations of society being alien to you, and society being something to feed on, and society being something to prey on. The very moment you accept yourself as part of society you have already surrendered your soul and your dreams. You can use society as a tool or weapon, or as a snare. But the moment you believe on it, you are dead.

Even in this person's case (the cousin), he would probably have been more successful in life than he is today with the (economic and emotional) support of his family, had he just learned to compromise.

@ Witch

What makes you think everyone dreams to be detached from society, to destroy it (can you even give a concrete example of a dream that entails this)? You seem quite happy posting around in RPG Watch and participating in KKKodexian discourse. You speak as if everyone subconsciously desires to destroy society.

That's what, again, you don't understand. You are talking about success, while I am talking about victory. Success? What's success? In the end you are getting exactly the same as everyone else: You get old and ugly, and then, if you didn't kill yourself to not be old and ugly at least, you die a horrible and ugly death, and then move either into oblivion or into whatever horrible, dog eat dog metaphysical realm out there, where you are probably too weak to keep your own identity and instead are torn to shreds by the abyss.

Victory is destroying everything that opposes you. Success, meanwhile, is a value born of cultural context, as you must be judged socially to be considered successful. Therefore, success is devoid of meaning for someone in this path.

And I didn't say everyone dreams to be detached of society, but that everyone's dreams are actually detached of context. How, otherwise, would you dream before becoming indoctrinated and influenced by the social context? You had innocent dreams in your childhood, and passionate dreams in your adolescence, that you betrayed to fit in, to be responsible. Even in adulthood most people has dreams that require the defiance of the context, it's symbolical destruction: there are entire forums, online, and clubs, offline, of grown men who dream of nothing but disappearing one day without telling their family, their coworkers, and anybody else what they plan to do. There is an entire market of men and woman so disapointed with their contexts that eat from any random guru's hand for a bit of liberation, that consumed massive amounts of romantic literature because they can't hold back the nausea when looking at whom they ended with, etc, etc, etc, etc. But they, also, repress those dreams and turn them into pathetic escapism, because they have to responsible and mature.

They don't have to. They are being slaves to the right hand, like most in a given age are. But they can, instead, just say fuck this shit, fuck my family, fuck society, i'm going after my innocent, passionate, wild delussions, and woe to anyone who gets in my way.

That's the true path.

I would say, and you should probably agree, that victory about is achieving your dreams. If your dreams entail destroying society, family ties, being a stoic lone-wolf or what have you, then yes, so does victory entail these things. But these things are not inherent to a dream. What you haven't answered is why can't a person dream of bringing up a family, having a quiet, normal life, finding love, or any such combination of everyday joys? Why is every person obligated to conforming to your concept of what one ought to dream?

Sure you might say that a man who dreams of such things is conforming to norms, brainwashed by society, or what have you. But how are any of these things important if, upon being "brainwashed", one comes to genuinely desire these things? If nothing but desire and dreams is important, then you should have no problem with society's brainwashing molding the aforementioned. How can anyone even have dreams that are not a product of his environment is something you haven't explained.

Exactly. Victory is having your dreams exactly as dreamed. No compromise. No good for what it is. They are exactly as you dreamed them, or you have been defeated. So keep fighting until you die or until you have exactly what you dreamed, no matter who has to fall and who you have to face against.

Given most people is absorved inside the ruling cultural paradigm, however, to reach for what you want and imagine instead of a realistic little banal good-for-what-it-is pseudo-dream will sooner or later strain your relationship with your family (you should be more realistic, you should stop running around and found a family, etc), your friends, your peers, etc, when not with law, morality, and ideology itself.

Okay, but like I said earlier, compromise is a means to getting closer to your dreams. The emotional and economical support the cousin would've gotten by compromising with his uncle would forward his goals a lot more than being a stubborn, uncompromising dipshit. Likewise the compromise one undertakes in being part of a group of people (such as a state - obeying the law, paying taxes, et cetera), assuming one does not have particularly destructive desires, usually gives him access to resources that assist him in achieving his dreams.