Grimoire Forever

Ummmm, ok. Just do the rest of us a favor and don't tell us it is coming out at a certain date. Dude, the whole "It's coming for sure" thing sorta got my hopes up. But hey, it's your game. Your baby so to speak and if you want to keep that baby to yourself till your absolutely positively sure it is done, then more power to you.

Actually, one of the reasons Wiz8 was almost universally praised by critics was its great polish right out of the box. It was held up as a standard against other publishers. I loved the game, it was extremely addictive. When I did run into bugs on the rare occasion the development team (Linda Currie herself) fixed my saves directly.

Part of the reason for the delay was that their publishers kept falling through thanks to the .com bust. They eventually published it themselves in a unique deal with Electronics Boutique. This hurt them with Software, etc (I believe they are now the same company) but even they picked the game up. The last time I saw it on the shelves it was $20 so Samhain I think you can find a cheap copy somewhere.

One credit to the staff's favour was the acknowledgment they gave to DW Bradley in their forums for legacy he left from the later Wizardry's for them to continue in spite of the fact that Bradley went on to do his own things.

The biggest fault of Wiz8 of course was how long it took to get it to market. They did overhaul the game to update the graphics at one point and that was a good thing but at almost 10 years of development..that was way too long.

mm so i dunno how to react to these news. i've been eagerly following this game since i first heard about it on dot. being the only 'new' yet true old-school rpg to be released, made me want the game even more.
then the years started to pass..

silence

2 years later.
"Yeah so it isnt finished, but im still working on it and its going really well!! it'll probably be out in x months"

silence

3 years later.
"Hi all! Well, so i decided to re-code everything, and its taking a while. ..but everything is gonna get so much better now, check back for updates!!

silence

years later.
"Its REALLY COMING THIS TIME! X-MAS 2007"#!¤"

you know you're really trying the patience of your [former] fans...

theres a saying that goes
a painting is never finished, you just choose to stop working on it

there's no such thing as a 100% perfect game, like you said, you're just a guy in a basement, nobody expects that from you anyway. that's what patches, and sequels are for!

its like youre sitting on the mona lisa but you're too scared to show it to us

You are a lucky guy, dyze. Because I have heard about Grimoire in 1995. 12 freakin' years ...

"Coming along nicely, though." - sorry, I cant hear this sentence any more without allergic reaction

Cleveland Mark Blakemore said:

I don't want to be accused of putting out a game with bugs (like W8) because I could not be bothered to beta test anymore and fix them.

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Wizardry 8 wasn't especially buggy. I'm sure it had some bugs, but nothing that affected my playing of it. It's a relative thing I guess, i.e. many games are unacceptably buggy, but Wizardry 8 certainly wasn't one of those.

Relatively speaking, I think it is correct to say W8 was actually better than most games nowadays ... but if a game isn't playable until you install a user-made patch to change the combats, isn't that a pretty big meatball?

I would have worried that people who played the demo would see enough of the game to be turned off to the idea of pursuing it any further by buying it retail - and I think this is exactly what happened.

It also happened for me with Wizards & Warriors by D.W. Bradley. The impression you get from the demo is that this is not a game worth buying. If you persist however, it turns out to be pretty decent after a while. The demo put so many potential players off (including Wizardry fans) that it didn't sell well because most thought it was just plain dull.

In terms of the market for the game style itself, the genre of turn-based RPGs, I think Wiz 8 could have sold millions of copies if they had a better distributor and had rehauled the game mechanics with a really critical eye to detail, especially in the demo they released prior.(!)

Now there's an interesting point of reference. W&W is a great example of a game that needed another 6 months in the oven. With 2 game breakers and more minor bugs than a flea circus, the QA department clearly never even saw that one. And that's not even mentioning silly stuff like the UberHorse. Activision took the dogpile, shoved it out the door, and walked away. A perfect example of a game that was OK but could have been truly great.

Cleveland Mark Blakemore said:

Relatively speaking, I think it is correct to say W8 was actually better than most games nowadays ... but if a game isn't playable until you install a user-made patch to change the combats, isn't that a pretty big meatball?

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Oh, it wasn't that bad. I found the game quite playable without the user-made patch in question. The only time the combat became tedious for me was when I returned to an area where my party's abilities had out-stripped the abilities of that area's scaled denizens, and the combat was essentially a forgone conclusion. Those combats were tedious, as all I really wanted to do was get through the area to my goal or something more challenging.
The problem wasn't so bad that I would class the game as a whole as "unplayable".

I would have worried that people who played the demo would see enough of the game to be turned off to the idea of pursuing it any further by buying it retail - and I think this is exactly what happened.

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Did it really do that badly? It actually reviewed quite well both online and offline.
Unlike the subject of the next bit...

It also happened for me with Wizards & Warriors by D.W. Bradley. The impression you get from the demo is that this is not a game worth buying. If you persist however, it turns out to be pretty decent after a while. The demo put so many potential players off (including Wizardry fans) that it didn't sell well because most thought it was just plain dull.

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It also didn't sell well because this, unlike Wizardry 8, was a game that was unacceptably buggy and critics sure as hell made certain everyone knew it.
I agree with you that it turned out "pretty decent" despite this. Some people think I'm nuts because I would even go as far as to say that I found it overall "very enjoyable". But if there was ever a CRPG that deserved the reputation for bugginess, this is it.

Edit:
Anyway, good luck on getting your beast of a game out. There seems to be a (gentle) resurgence of indie games at the moment, so the sooner you get it out the more likely you'll be able to ride that wave.
As for opinions re: Wizardry 8, I should warn you I'm an unreasonable Wizardry 8 fanboi (hence my avatar), so we'll probably never see eye to eye on your criticisms

Shagnak said:

I agree with you that it turned out "pretty decent" despite this. Some people think I'm nuts because I would even go as far as to say that I found it overall "very enjoyable".

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I don't think your nuts and totally agree with you. I loved W&W and finished it many times. Yes, there were bugs. Yes, it could of been better but I guess my standards for a game are lower than most. I can accept a few bugs if the game is just fun to play.

I also like Bloodlines, Arcanum, Fallout, TOEE and Devil Whiskey. Those were buggy games also but I had fun playing them. I would of liked Devil Whiskey more if they kept supporting the game but overall I had fun playing it too.

I don't get some of the comments in this thread. I have never understood them in any forum or day. If Cleve needs 10 more year to be happy, whats the problem? Plans, especially plans when you might need to do the work by yourself, do change and you do have to react to real life. One of the pros being without a publisher and working in the obscure world of indie development.

Cleve makes alot of valid points about game development. I saw a video review of Crysis yesterday (it was on tv). They said: If you have a powerful computer, you gonna love it cause its the most beautiful thing you played. If your computer is in the mid range you gonna think its bleak. I played crysis, half life and soo on, and they do not reinvent anything. The only game recently that really shocked me was the withcer... and before that gothic II (which i played before number one).

I hope Cleves game will rattle my cage. That Grimoire will be that great rpg i always wanted to play. But i do think i will be dissapointed in finding that it isn't "really" that. Taste differs, and we all seek different thing, and i do think that Cleve take pride in his work and will not leave anything halfbad, as he think, for us to enjoy.

I do think however, which of course Cleve is well aware off, that he can never please everyone. However, reading some comments i know i never would have released it. Why bother with a community that demands it will be released cause i said so, and i need more time, or - if i released it will scream murder, cause the game was not play tested.

Cleve, i do not envy you in that respect. It seems like a moment 22. I however will buy the game unseen just because your refreshingly believe in your work soo much. (it reads betwen the line). Its you and my other favourite developer, Vogel, whos game i don't like, but buy anyway cause he has an attitude....

Well, perhaps its me thats strange.

Perhaps i got too much money, or i just like honest men who do what they believe in.

more power to you!

I'm curious, what thread are you reading because I have no idea what the hell your talking about? No one here is trashing Cleve. We've made a few jokes about whether it would be released or not. Then Cleve pops in and lets us know whats going on and then trashes some great CRPG. Even then there is no hostility. Just rational discussions on some great games.

I finished wiz8 without any patches. The only bits that pushed me to my limits of sanity were rapax castle and the final map.

Ditto here on not using any patches for Wiz8. I saw no need. The demo only wetted my appetite to go buy it. It did not have the variety of differing gameplay as Wiz7 I heard but it had enough. I probably did what most people did and played both sides (Brilllliant..but it'll cost you!). The voice acting was terrific and the characters were great! Plus that perfect blend of sci-fi and fantasy that's so difficult to achieve. I'm gushing here.bring on Wizardry 9!

Anyone play Deathstalker's mod for Wiz 8. It added something new for my third round of Wizardry 8. I couldn't rely on the same tactics I had used in the two previous play thoughs and it fixed some holes in the plot. It was an interesting mod for wiz.

I haven't tried any user mods beyond Wizfast, but I've heard many times that Flamestryke's mod is the best of the best.

I probably ought to give Flamestryke's work a spin some day. I'm probably about due for another Wiz8 run.

skavenhorde said:

I'm curious, what thread are you reading because I have no idea what the hell your talking about? No one here is trashing Cleve. We've made a few jokes about whether it would be released or not. Then Cleve pops in and lets us know whats going on and then trashes some great CRPG. Even then there is no hostility. Just rational discussions on some great games.

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Sorry, that it didn't came out as joke then. My misstake.

I read trashing. Guess, the mood of the writer, never comes out in writing.

My misstake.

Don't worry about it Mute - when it comes to the subject of Cleve, you'd usually be right. Fortunately, this has been a fairly good-natured thread.

mute said:

Sorry, that it didn't came out as joke then. My misstake.
I read trashing. Guess, the mood of the writer, never comes out in writing.
My misstake.

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LOL, ok I get your post now. It's too bad you can't have a voice with the posts because some jokes just don't translate well to paper unless you can hear it or I am just a tad too grumpy most of the time because I thought you were dead serious ....smileys help to convey your emotional state of mind. Gotta love those smileys.

This is a much better thread then the codex...they would be trying to lynch him just about now.

rune_74 said:

This is a much better thread then the codex...they would be trying to lynch him just about now.

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they would be right...