Spiderweb Games: Kickstarter

Just a thought that was kicking around in my head: There are many, many of us here who have played Jeff Vogel's games. Jeff is a good writer and has all the basics of a good game down pat. If he did a kickstarter to hire a musician, some code monkeys and a couple artists, would it generate more revenue than his current model? He's got the game cred and I think he's well known enough that he'd have a pretty good following. I, for one, would love to see Jeff work on a game with a bigger budget and a team of professional assistants. Instead of his 450 art assets, he could have thousands. Instead of boop and beep, some real high-tech audio. Would it help or would it destroy that which makes Spiderweb special?

I certainly don't see his games being worse if he did it.

Not that I think his games are bad, but I've never liked any of the demos enough to purchase one. A significant improvement in the audio and visuals would go a long way, imo.

Considering that Jeff's games at least compete with the big studios for what RPGS fans SAY they care about, and are better than most in those regards ... Putting the STFU on the graphics hos couldn't hurt at all ...

I don't see any reason to improve on his current gen graphics engine. Perhaps I'm selfish, but I like the low hardware requirements of his game. Additional art assets and animation however, that I would greatly welcome. In Avadon you get in a situation where 2 player characters in your party look identical.

Nothing fancier than the Infinity Engine would be a good benchmark.

I got Avadon on that recent humble bundle and have been playing it. I'm enjoying it though certainly there are a few things about it that are taking me time to get used to. If he were to do a kickstarter, I think the two areas he should spend the money most are writing and graphics.

While the writing is certainly adequate, just in the few hours I've played so far, it comes across as a bit amateur. I don't mean that to sound harsh (its certainly better than a lot of games), but certain things just come across a bit unpolished in how he phrases them.

The graphics are fine for the most part. Its obviously tile based, but it does a pretty good job of not looking overly patterned, but still not as smooth as something like BG or Arcanum. They work for me, but I think it would open his game to a much larger audience with a better graphics set.

I've only played Avadon so far and I really enjoyed it, but I feel an improved budget through kickstarter certainly wouldn't hurt. The game has a very nice main theme, which is only heard on the game's menu, and I think it could have used some more background track's. I think that the writing was very good all in all though, some voice acting for the main roles at least, would be nice .

I find his games incredibly bland and boring - so this can only make them better.

DArtagnan said:

I find his games incredibly bland and boring - so this can only make them better.

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Well, a big budget can't
- ensure quality or breadth of content - just ask Dragon Age 2
- guarantee a lack of bland & boring copy & paste content with fundamentally broken systems but oh gee the graphics sure are pretty ... just ask Oblivion

And so on.

I think Jeff has all the right stuff, except for a bigger budget to add flair. Jeff's games are solid in the areas that matter, the problem is that they're so barebones that many people don't give them a chance. The only other weakness is that Jeff doesn't change up the story enough in between chapters. Exile 1 was cool, Exile 2 was cool, Exile 3, Avernum 4 and 5 all felt too similar. The same thing with the Geneforge series. A team of co-professionals would help Jeff avoid some of the pitfalls of being a one-man designer; at least that's my hope. I'm with txa when it comes to Jeff not needing much/any help on design. His games are superior in that area.

Leave them as is. Who needs music for games, I listen to my own when I play. In all honesty, I prefer it that way, as any game that forces me to listen is most likely going to get returned. Vogel doesn't need this, he has quite a loyal following, and I'd hate to see his games changed by some bigwig dufus that thinks he's the bee's knees on the newest trend. If he took money or accepted more outside input, I think he'd lose people, not gain them.


-Carn

I don't want music either, honestly, but a solid UI redesign and graphics/sound effects upgrade in his game engine would be appreciated. It's just not cutting it for me.

As a big Spiderweb fan, I could see it working on paper...but I'm not sure about reality. I think Jeff actually likes his shoestring operation, so I'm not sure about him managing a bigger production.

On the other hand, a bunch of Kickstarter cash could mean he could leave the reality of trying to make a buck behind and just let his creativity go.

Carnifex said:

Who needs music for games, I listen to my own when I play. In all honesty, I prefer it that way, as any game that forces me to listen is most likely going to get returned.

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You must be playing the wrong games.

Some of my fondest memories from my favorite games are the soundtracks.

txa1265 said:

Well, a big budget can't
- ensure quality or breadth of content - just ask Dragon Age 2
- guarantee a lack of bland & boring copy & paste content with fundamentally broken systems but oh gee the graphics sure are pretty … just ask Oblivion

And so on.

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It can't ensure anything, but it should help the looks. But, if you Spiderweb fans are anything to go by (and I'm not saying you are ) - those things are not needed in his games. They're already of fantastic quality, breadth and content - no?

IIRC, you consider Avadon on par with The Witcher, Skyrim, Dragon Age, and Deus Ex - right? So the budget shouldn't be spent on anything but visuals.

That said, I'd rather play Oblivion and Dragon Age 2 than any Spiderweb game. I've tried a few of them, but I keep missing this fantastic stuff the fans are talking about.

However, I find it amusing you bring up "copy and paste" with this. As far as I can see, Spiderweb games are largely exactly that.

Not surprising given it's a one man job - but that's what it is. It's a pretty natural limitation that could easily be helped by adding a few people with actual talent to do the visuals.

this is the example I mentioned in some other thread. Game like Avernum, when taken just by the 'bullet points' sounds like the perfect game for me, but when I saw how it looked in the demo, I just couldn't get past it (and I'm not a 'graphics whore'). I don't care about music, and to me story is second to gameplay, so I would be interested only if it was a major graphics overhaul

DArtagnan said:

IIRC, you consider Avadon on par with The Witcher, Skyrim, Dragon Age, and Deus Ex - right? So the budget shouldn't be spent on anything but visuals.

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Heck no! That was that the Apple troll guy. I suggested that Spiderweb games are on par with many commercial ventures over the last several years, and the quality of writing, attention to detail, and polish is certainly better than all but about 2-5 games per year.

But I don't think anyone would suggest that Vogel approaches Sapkowski for writing, or even the Bioware games which I love for their drama and gameplay, and certainly not the wonderful 1st and 3rd Deus Ex games.

DArtagnan said:

That said, I'd rather play Oblivion and Dragon Age 2 than any Spiderweb game. I've tried a few of them, but I keep missing this fantastic stuff the fans are talking about.

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That is OK, there are many who don't 'get' why someone would like the Gothic games, Bethsoft's adventure games, the Baldur's Gate games, and so on.

There are many flawed games I would rather play than supposedly superior alternatives, so that is no big deal. My point was just that as an RPG, Oblivion is severely lacking and broken, so when someone asked back in 2006 which was a better RPG, my answer was Avernum 4. Whether that makes it a better game is subjective, ...

Though even as someone who loves Bioware, I find it laughable that people can single out Spiderweb for recycling story. Heck, we're playing the same Bioware game with the same characters as we did over a decade ago - just a different setting, better graphics, and new names. I happen to love that game - but it really isn't even debatable that Dragon Age 2 is insulting to gamers. They put more effort into differentiating sequential years of Madden NFL games.

Dhruin said:

I think Jeff actually likes his shoestring operation, so I'm not sure about him managing a bigger production.

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Likewise. I think Jeff actually likes to be a one man band. Besides, reading Jeff's blog comments about DA2, for example, makes me think that should Jeff have a bigger budget, he would probably go in a direction that would make me like his games less.

Having said that, I wouldn't say no to a bit more "oomph" in the graphics and sound departments, should Jeff have extra funds to dedicate to those. While I don't think the graphics in his most recent games are all that bad, I'd really like some more graphical variety and consistency in his games. For instance, have several different sprites/models for each enemy type (so that not every bandit looks exactly the same, etc.) and also more variety in item icons, while having them also have a more unified style (so that they don't jump around in quality or style so much).

Also, while Jeff doesn't care much for music in games, the sound effects could use some more love at least. A lot in fact. Listening to the same short sound loop of crowd noise played in all of the cities in early Geneforges, for example, is enough to drive even the strongest of us seriously bonkers.

Another aspect of this is that if Jeff could bring in several people to upgrade graphics, maybe make a new engine, add music and work on some new story lines (I wouldn't want to invest in redoing Exile one more time) for one game, he would end up with code and resources he would be able to use in his next 2 or 3 games. His possible financial rewards should be calculated over a range of games (if we look at his publishing history).

On the other hand, I doubt he has the level of support of a Double Fine. Sure people are saying they would purchase his games if the graphics are better. But would those people pay in advance for the promise of improved graphics? If not, it would just be his normal fan base. So the only difference would be that he would be getting the same amount of money, just before he wrote the code rather than after. That scenario doesn't doesn't provide the funds needed to bring on new team members.

txa1265 said:

Heck no! That was that the Apple troll guy. I suggested that Spiderweb games are on par with many commercial ventures over the last several years, and the quality of writing, attention to detail, and polish is certainly better than all but about 2-5 games per year.

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Oh, I guess I must have misunderstood your agreement

But I don't think anyone would suggest that Vogel approaches Sapkowski for writing, or even the Bioware games which I love for their drama and gameplay, and certainly not the wonderful 1st and 3rd Deus Ex games.

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Then we're not as far apart as I would have thought.

There are many flawed games I would rather play than supposedly superior alternatives, so that is no big deal. My point was just that as an RPG, Oblivion is severely lacking and broken, so when someone asked back in 2006 which was a better RPG, my answer was Avernum 4. Whether that makes it a better game is subjective, …

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I agree that Oblivion is severely flawed and broken. But I'd still say that it was extremely impressive and uncommonly ambitious. I have a lot of respect for what Bethesda is trying to do in a market that's so dominated by perceived demands and publishers.

Though even as someone who loves Bioware, I find it laughable that people can single out Spiderweb for recycling story. Heck, we're playing the same Bioware game with the same characters as we did over a decade ago - just a different setting, better graphics, and new names. I happen to love that game - but it really isn't even debatable that Dragon Age 2 is insulting to gamers. They put more effort into differentiating sequential years of Madden NFL games.

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Where did I say recycled story? I said "copy and paste" - which is about all kinds of content. Jeff has admitted as much himself, and who can blame him - really. He's just one guy.

Some people don't mind playing almost the same game in the same engine, using the same assets over and over - and that's fine.

Story, for me, is secondary in most games.

I never said DA2 was a good game, though I don't think it's terrible. I think it's a terrible game when compared to DA - but alone it's kinda average with some cool mechanics and some awful mechanics.

I just said that I'd rather play DA2 than any Spiderweb game.

Yeah, all he needs is the flashy production value. There's some very precisely measured tactical combat in his games that stands out from most RPGs and carries the games even without the flair of shiny graphics.

Originally Posted by Carnifex
Who needs music for games

Music pretty much IS the atmosphere of a game for me. Hugely important!