Greek gov't bonds downgraded to junk status, Eurozone in trouble

zakhai, no, I wasn't forced to lie, and I'm not even lying. We're in the middle of the economical warzone as citizens. I'm simply putting the facts on with this mess. If you want to blame someone, blame the Greek politicians.

Hear what happened just a week ago! Instead of being punished for the Siemens scandal, they got the prescription of their crimes(!!!), which means we're now the victims and need to pay for their OWN crimes and crisis(!), and what's worse, the Siemens shitholes don't want to admit the bribery towards the politicians(!). So imagine how we feel about it! Instead of them getting punished, we're ALWAYS getting punished whether we did or not the crimes!!! And who's responsible for it? Those shitholes voted the Prescription Law out, which means that this law P-R-O-T-E-C-T-S the politicians, NOT us citizens.

And that's why, we as citizens demand development and antagonism, otherwise we'll wait for the default.

And there's about the time we'll be forced to kick those Greek politicians out of Greece, just like what happened to Kantafi and Mumbarak.
 
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The main difference being that the Greek government came in power by recent democratic elections and that once things go back to normal 70% of the population will once again vote for one of the two parties that have ruled this country for the last decades and are thus responsible for this whole mess.

But still I don't think it would be fair to blame the "simple" people of Greece for the current inability of their government just as you can't blame all the residents of a country that wages war on another one.
 
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Dear Green Place
waste our taxpayer money

what taxpayers money? you are borrowing from "the markets" at 4% and loan us with 8% , we didn't got a penny from any taxpayer

Eh and those money never pass from here, they go straight to our debtor's accounts


-1 respect point to you for posting while having no clue
 
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what taxpayers money? you are borrowing from "the markets" at 4% and loan us with 8% , we didn't got a penny from any taxpayer

Eh and those money never pass from here, they go straight to our debtor's accounts

-1 respect point to you for posting while having no clue
I think you need to check out what default means. Once greece defaults we wont get the money back that we gave you and we still have to pay back to the markts so its nothing but big loss for us.

And yes its taxpayer money because the loan is payed back from future taxes collected. It doesnt come from magic walls.

Also dont whine about voting. We cant vote for you. You have to do it yourself. If you are unable to change your own government because parties are corrupt then create a new party. If you just sit there and blame everyone for your own problems you will never get anything fixed.
 
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Perhaps the "solution" doesn't scale well? We've got cities with larger population than Iceland. The total debt (ignoring the horrible factual errors in the article) was measured at a few billion. Barack spends that kind of loot before breakfast.
 
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I applaud Iceland for doing something like that. As dte mentioned, it's possible size is a problem for other countries.
 
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I applaud Iceland for doing something like that. As dte mentioned, it's possible size is a problem for other countries.
They were able to do it thanks to their direct democracy. I couldnt be happier for Iceland.

I wish Finland had a real democracy too instead of censorship democracy. Old soviet era tradition of anti-criticism is hurting the country. In example there are cases where you cant even make a study in university if its critical towards the current economic policy. Nokias old CEO was never criticised even though they say the stocks fell every time he opened his mouth. Government workers can loose their job if they are critical about it. Media lies and twists stories for political gains. I hate this.

This finn had to pay fine of thousands of euros because he was critical against government official and quoted his sayings in one internet discussion: http://usvi.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/82322-sain-kunnianloukkaustuomion-nettikeskustelusta
 
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Congress spends money, not the president.
You are mostly correct (the Prez does have a congressionally budgetted slush fund for direct discretionary spending, but that's a minor technicality), although I notice that you play fast and loose with that fact (just like I did) as well. "Dubya's spending" ring any bells? Kinda puts a dent in that whole "Blame Bush" meme, doncha think?

Not sure direct democracy would fare well with larger, diverse populations.
 
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Not sure direct democracy would fare well with larger populations.
I dont think either and California seems a good example. They should divide it to smaller more controllable areas for it to work. In comparisin Switszerland is six times smaller and more much more homegenous. Direct democracy has always worked there.
 
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As I feared, my predictions for the official default is going to be real. We'll be bankrupted within 6 months from now on. Now the Swiss firm is warning everyone about it. Greece is the time bomb for the default, and will bring violent economical casualties in every European bank.
 
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You are mostly correct (the Prez does have a congressionally budgetted slush fund for direct discretionary spending, but that's a minor technicality), although I notice that you play fast and loose with that fact (just like I did) as well. "Dubya's spending" ring any bells? Kinda puts a dent in that whole "Blame Bush" meme, doncha think?

Sending troops to two wars is another loophole around Congress that Dubya managed to screw the budget with...
 
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I dont think either and California seems a good example. They should divide it to smaller more controllable areas for it to work. In comparisin Switszerland is six times smaller and more much more homegenous. Direct democracy has always worked there.

Well the referendum system in CA is broken. Anyone (including out of state funding sources, Prop 8 anyone?) can put a proposition on the ballot. You get a LOT of junk measures that serve well funded special interests that blast the media with lies.
 
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Well the referendum system in CA is broken. Anyone (including out of state funding sources, Prop 8 anyone?) can put a proposition on the ballot. You get a LOT of junk measures that serve well funded special interests that blast the media with lies.
I dont know about CA but in Finland im starting to get hopeless. The more I study our political past the more I see how hopeless we are. Finland is still living in soviet-era censorship.

If you think that fall of sovient union was enough to instantly break down all the bad you are naive. It didnt do that that. Soviet era self-censorship is still alive in Finland this day. Good example is Nokia. The fall of Nokia is directly related to the lack of criticism in my country. We worshipped leaders like Nokia's Ollila without any criticism and you know what happened. Its a national sickness.

In my country its hard to be critical. People even look bad at you if you dont follow the "political truth". We even have our own mental illness for it called "kverulatorinen paranoia". It means that person is critical against real or unreal defacts in the world. Before 90s you might get sentance in insane asylym with that if you were too aloud with wrong ideas.

Self-censorship is part of our recent history and its still alive. We won our independance in ww2 but we lost it in the peace. Finlandization was much more than just a word. It left a stain in our country that sticks.

Direct democracy needs people who know how to think critical but finnish culture is laking in that real bad.
 
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PJ, where are you? I'm sure you wouldn't totally agree with that; you're one of the better critical thinkers I know!!
 
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PJ, where are you? I'm sure you wouldn't totally agree with that; you're one of the better critical thinkers I know!!
I would too want to hear PJ's opinnion because while he was of different idiology he always made good arguments for what he said. I would have lots of things to ask from him but that would need a thread of its own.

But anyways sorry for derailing this thread. It seems greeks are finally going for default. It was somthing that cannot be stopped. You can ignore the markets but markets wont ignore you. Im sure we will survive it because europe has seen much worse many times before. This will be just a minor bump in history.

Some things might have to change. In future I hope the growth of our economy is not based on loaned money. Such economy is unsustainable. Globalization is problematic but we will find means to survive.
 
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The Euro-currency was a bad idea from the beginning:

A euro power play that backfired
Oliver Marc Hartwich


To fully appreciate the subtle ironies of the euro crisis it takes a sense for history. Europe’s common currency has practically achieved the very opposite of what its creators originally intended. Instead of framing the Germans in Europe, the crisis has elevated Germany to the continent’s new, albeit reluctant, hegemon. Former French President François Mitterrand must be spinning in his grave.

Last Sunday, the Asia Society hosted a dinner for World Bank President Robert Zoellick in Sydney. His warnings about a further escalation of the debt crisis were widely reported, and the high-calibre audience certainly appreciated his views on the state of emerging markets. However, Zoellick also gave a fascinating insight into the early history of European monetary union.

After the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989, Zoellick was the lead US official in the ‘two-plus-four’ negotiations that prepared Germany’s re-unification in October 1990 (so named after the two German states and the four allied forces – Britain, France, the Soviet Union and the US). He was thus intimately involved in the diplomatic balancing act of unifying Germany while reassuring the British and the French that they had nothing to fear from this new and bigger country in the heart of Europe. For his achievements, Zoellick was even made a Knight Commander of the German order of merit, a very high award for a foreign national.

British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was horrified about the prospect of a united Germany. “We beat the Germans twice, and now they’re back,” she allegedly told a meeting of European leaders at the time. Thatcher even invited historians to a seminar at Chequers to discuss the question of how dangerous the Germans really were. Her trade minister, Nicholas Ridley, was forced to resign after he had compared German chancellor Helmut Kohl to Adolf Hitler in an interview with The Spectator.

French suspicions of the rise of a new evil German superstate were equally strong, as previously confidential memos now released by the British Foreign Office reveal. President Mitterrand was convinced that the prospect of unification had turned the Germans into the ‘bad Germans’ they used to be. He saw them as behaving brutally in the pursuit of their new national interests, thereby upsetting the political and security settings of Europe. In a conversation with then US President George Bush Snr, he also remarked “I like Germany so much, I think there should be two of them!”

The tensions between Germany and its neighbours around the time of unification were enormous. Even the Soviet Union was more open to the idea than West Germany’s old allies. France especially needed to be convinced that it had nothing to fear from a reunited Germany.

There had always been rumours that in the two-plus-four negotiations the French had demanded Germany to give up its beloved Deutschmark in return for a French ‘oui’ on unification. More than once the dominance of the über-solid Deutschmark had caused the French and other European nations pain. Forcing the Germans to abandon their currency would surely be an appropriate way to weaken them so they could not become a threat to other nations, the French probably thought.

The only problem with this account of history is that there is no solid evidence for it. When Der Spiegel news magazine reported these rumours once again last year, representatives of the old Kohl government were quick to dispute that there had been any secret deals at the time. “There never was an agreement,” German treasurer Wolfgang Schäuble (who was home secretary at the time) boldly claimed. His predecessor Theo Waigel flatly denied any link between unification and the euro.

Such previous denials made Robert Zoellick’s remarks at the Sydney dinner all the more remarkable. Almost in passing, and as if it was the most obvious thing in the world, he explained his understanding of how Europe got its common currency. And his account confirmed the rumours that it had a lot to do with German unification.

As Zoellick told his audience (that was probably unaware of how controversial these issues still are in Europe) it was very clear that European monetary union resulted from French-German tensions before unification and was meant to calm Mitterrand’s fears of an all-too-powerful Germany. According to Zoellick, the euro currency is a by-product of German unification. As one of the key insiders in the two-plus-four negotiations, trusted and highly decorated by the Germans, nobody would be better qualified to know the real story behind European Monetary Union. Despite all official denials coming from the German government until the present day, there are no good reasons not to believe Zoellick’s account of the events.

The great historical irony of this story is, of course, that if the French had really planned to weaken the powers of newly reunited Germany through monetary union, this attempt has now completely backfired. Sure, the Germans will pay massively for the sake of keeping the euro project alive (if they don’t pull out of monetary union once they realise this). But in strategic terms, Germany’s influence has never been greater. As the continent wants to bank on Germany’s AAA rating, Berlin can now effectively dictate fiscal policy to Athens, Lisbon and Rome – perhaps in the future to Paris, too. This is most definitely not what Mitterrand had planned.

Perhaps an even greater irony, however, is that the Germans are not at all happy with their new hegemonic power within Europe. As opinion polls show they have not the slightest interest in ruling the European periphery. Large majorities reject the euro and neither want to pay or rule. In fact, the Germans would be content being just a greater version of Switzerland – prosperous, a bit boring and vigorously unengaged in international affairs. It is the very role the West Germans learnt to play to perfection between 1945 and 1990. This also means that France and Britain would have had nothing to fear from the Germans at the time of unification. If they had known the post-war Germans better, they would have been very relaxed about a larger Germany.

As it turns out, the euro is not only an unworkable currency. It actually started as a French insurance policy against German power. But even as an insurance policy it has failed. Against their will, it has turned the Germans into the new rulers of Europe. And it has consigned France to be the weaker partner in the Franco-German relationship.

If Mitterrand had known all this in advance, he would have insisted on Germany keeping the Deutschmark as the price for German unification.
 
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