Fallout 3 - Review Roundup #2

May i remind people that we have a designated thread to rant and rave about Oblivion. Let's keep this one to Fallout3!!

Forgive me Corwin that Ill add one last comment.

So who do you roleplay in Oblivion. Let's see... If I picked a Speechcraft as my main skill can I avoid a fight? Do I have a possibility to change the way the plot goes by doing things different, like not killing everything in my sight? So in Oblivion you can roleplay let's say a diplomat, but it doesnt look convincing when Talleyrand-wannabe has to chop his way through heaps of enemies.

As for Divine Divinity. Even though its rather an ARPG it does offer you a living and believable world you can dive into. Oblivion with its 5 NPCs in a bigest city in Tamriel does not. Also dialogue-wise DD is better than ES4.

Also what have you against Bloodlines? It has a great plot, great dialogue, extremly well done character advancement, the most believable NPC personalities and voiceovers I had pleasure to "meet". In a vampire roleplay department it has everything you need.

That is my main gripe with Oblivion. Sure theoreticaly I can play anybody, but my skills dont matter, or at least not the combat ones. If Ill take speech as my main skill nothing's going to change in my playthrough. Ill just have to hack and whack through the same dungeons once again, and then I can return to the same dungeons once again, this time to face glass wearing bandits rather than leather. The world doesnt acknowledge my acomplishments, I change nothing.

Tell me what paths can you take in Oblivion not involving combat that allow you to finish main quest? That make you feel you play a specific role?

PS. If I could kindly request that admin moved Oblivion flavoured posts to appropirate topic I would be grateful. Thx.

What exactly is great about Morrowind/Oblivion? The only positive thing I can think of is the music. With this mentality, you get Gothic 3

nessosin said:

Tell me what paths can you take in Oblivion not involving combat that allow you to finish main quest? That make you feel you play a specific role?

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Your argument is extremely weak, as none of the crpgs you mentioned (or most any crpg for that matter) would allow you to finish the main quest with at least some form of combat. I could also name many things that you can do in Oblivion that you can't do in the games you listed. However, that is not the topic of this thread as Corwin has already pointed out.

You didn't like Oblivion, that's fine, now take your debate to an appropriate thread.

Fallout 3 is fallout and guess what its insanely fun and thats all that matters.

Did I stated that any of the RPGs I mentioned allowed to finish main plot without a fight? For an example in FO2 you could limit number of fights to a few. And it maybe that I just dont know how to accomplish peacefull solutions(or didnt have stats for it). So on one side we have Fallout 2 with many possible ways to solve quests and Oblivion with just one way. And you call my argumentation flawed?

Also what things can I do in Oblivion that I cannot do in other RPGs? Lift things up by pressing 'Z' button? Bounce and pounce through lash forests which are filled with bandits rather than wildlife? So what can I do? Honestly maybe thats my problem with Oblivion, there are so many things to do that I get lost in it......

nessosin said:

Did I stated that any of the RPGs I mentioned allowed to finish main plot without a fight? For an example in FO2 you could limit number of fights to a few. And it maybe that I just dont know how to accomplish peacefull solutions(or didnt have stats for it). So on one side we have Fallout 2 with many possible ways to solve quests and Oblivion with just one way. And you call my argumentation flawed?

Also what things can I do in Oblivion that I cannot do in other RPGs? Lift things up by pressing 'Z' button? Bounce and pounce through lash forests which are filled with bandits rather than wildlife? So what can I do? Honestly maybe thats my problem with Oblivion, there are so many things to do that I get lost in it......

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Now you are just being obnoxious, you have your mind made up and everyone should share your opinion or they are wrong.

We are talking about fallout 3 now, please try and follow that.

Sorry everyone that I wanted to hear some argumentation behind "Oblivion is a great cRPG. You can do so much things in it.". I know I shouldn't expect nothing else. Afterall its me who's obnoxious and have a mind made up.

PS. I know its a fallout discussion thread, but I really really do believe that some nice admin wont ban me but instead move my "mind made up" blabering to Oblivion topic. Thx .

rune_74 said:

To you it is not an rpg, but guess what you are not the end all be all of rpg or not rpg games. I loved it, it had some flaws but you name a game that doesn't.

I would love to hear the perfect rpg you have played.

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Here's what I cRPG fans consider the defining aspect of a true RPG:

Choices and Consequences

In other words, you choose what actions your character takes, and as a result, the storyline of the game is changed. This is the true essence of a cRPG, plain and simple.

In Oblivion, there were no real choices. Sometimes a quest would have one or two different ways to complete it, but the conclusion was always the same. The only real choice you had was whether to do the quest or not. There were never any actual alternate endings. And no matter what happened, there were no consequences in the storyline. Even if you join the Dark Brotherhood and murder hundreds of people, you can still become the hero of Tamriel by helping Martin Septim defeat the evil demon. The story still plays out exactly the same every time.

In a cRPG like (to cite a recent example) The Witcher, if you decide to help the elf rebels fight against the Order of the Flaming Rose that is persecuting them, then a Flaming Rose character who could have helped you will refuse to do so, and will eventually be killed as a result of your actions. You will also get a completely different ending to the game. Choices and consequences.

My list of "perfect" cRPGs (if "perfect" = really good): Baldur's Gate II, Planescape: Torment, The Witcher, Fallout, and SW:KotOR

Yeah, I had to jump in too. My apologies. I just got Fallout 3 today, so I will soon see if it is any different. Here's hoping!

Saber-Scorpion said:

Here's what I cRPG fans consider the defining aspect of a true RPG:

Choices and Consequences

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What now? You or CRPG fans?
Because I -as a CRPG fan- don't agree with that. The defining aspect for me is whether player skill or character skill (and stats/traits etc.) has a greater effect on the overall gameplay. The more the scale tips in the direction of character skill the closer we are to CRPG territory rather than action CRPG or pure action (FPS) game territory.

In other words, you choose what actions your character takes, and as a result, the storyline of the game is changed. This is the true essence of a cRPG, plain and simple.

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Plain and simple: No. Why? Because I said so. Just like you.
OK, seriously, even if you would apply that definition then Oblivion still qualifies as a CRPG since from the moment you leave the sewers you are free to choose any course of action. OK, you can not change the overall storyline (very very few games allow that by the way... if you really applied that standard then there'd only be a handful of CRPGs out there) but you can still have an influence on the game in quite a number of ways.

In Oblivion, there were no real choices. Sometimes a quest would have one or two different ways to complete it, but the conclusion was always the same.

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Correct. Just like in just about all other CRPGs.

The only real choice you had was whether to do the quest or not.

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Which is actually a very powerful choice to make from a pure and literally role-playing perspective and this is also where the (otherwise annoying) scaling actually had a positive effect on the game. You did not need to complete any and all quests to become powerful enough to beat the game or to beat certain other quests. The game gave you total freedom to make choices like not to get involved with killers and thieves or to only pursue the mage or fighter's guild careers depending on what type of character you played. No one (including the game thanks to its scaling) forced you to do anything. You could plan for your character to be this heroic fighter and just do the fighter's guild questline, ignoring all other opportunities (if you would seriously roleplay a heroic fighter you would never end up with the opportunity of joining the Dark Brotherhood anyway since you need to commit a murder first). Up to you.
In Oblivion you can literally slip under the skin of your alter ego and make a great number of choices. You just need to open your mind and get away from the limited perspective of "a choice is when I click either '1' or '2' in a dialogue).

There were never any actual alternate endings. And no matter what happened, there were no consequences in the storyline.

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Again: If you applied that rule to defining what a CRPG is then there's only a very small number of real CRPGs out there by that narrow definiton.

Even if you join the Dark Brotherhood and murder hundreds of people, you can still become the hero of Tamriel by helping Martin Septim defeat the evil demon. The story still plays out exactly the same every time.

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So? It's not like you're running around boasting about your evil deeds or wearing a badge that says "Proud Member of the Dark Brotherhood". The Dark Brotherhood is a secret organization that no one knows about. Why couldn't or why shouldn't you be able to pursue different careers or interests in the game? I thought you wanted freedom of choice? Here it is. Roleplay a schizo case. Save Tamriel during the day and turn killer at night. Why not? Or do not associate with the scum of Tamriel at all but leave the Thieves guild and the Dark Brotherhood for another playthrough when you want to play a shady character. Fine. You can do that, too.

In a cRPG like (to cite a recent example) The Witcher, if you decide to help the elf rebels fight against the Order of the Flaming Rose that is persecuting them, then a Flaming Rose character who could have helped you will refuse to do so, and will eventually be killed as a result of your actions. You will also get a completely different ending to the game. Choices and consequences.

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Oblivion and The Witcher are totally different types of CRPGs though. Oblivion is a sandbox CRPG where you define your character and plot your course of action. You could go to the Imperial City first, you could head south, north, east, west, anywhere... you could go as far as roleplaying a hunter in the woods or an interior decorator if you buy a house in one of the cities (single player MMORPG indeed).
You do not need to pursue the main quest at all or you can do it right away, pretending as if the urgency was real, and then later go back to doing other stuff.
The Witcher on the other hand is a much more directed and story-driven experience where you are led along a very narrow path. It's just a totally different approach. That doesn't really mean that one game is a CRPG and the other isn't though. They are just different types of CRPGs. Personally, I really like both games by the way.

My list of "perfect" cRPGs (if "perfect" = really good): Baldur's Gate II, Planescape: Torment, The Witcher, Fallout, and SW:KotOR

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Well, a good number of those games is pretty weak in the c&c department, especially BG2, PST and KotOR where the "alternate" endings to a quest are frequently pretty much meaningless and only of cosmetic nature like only a different end dialogue but I can see where you're coming from if you limit the definition of a CRPG to only choice & consequence.

nessosin said:

Sorry everyone that I wanted to hear some argumentation behind "Oblivion is a great cRPG. You can do so much things in it.". I know I shouldn't expect nothing else. Afterall its me who's obnoxious and have a mind made u.

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Is English your native language? What part about 'taking your argument to the proper thread' did you not understand?

nessosin said:

Sorry everyone that I wanted to hear some argumentation behind "Oblivion is a great cRPG. You can do so much things in it.".

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Saber-Scorpion said:

Here's what I cRPG fans consider the defining aspect of a true RPG:

Choices and Consequences

In other words, you choose what actions your character takes, and as a result, the storyline of the game is changed. This is the true essence of a cRPG, plain and simple.

Click to expand...

The problem is that not everyone agrees. I personally subscribe to the same train of thought but not everyone else does. By the way, listing Baldur's Gate tears down your position, because there are almost no real choices or consequences.

For other people, being able to step into the gameworld, completely ignore the main quest (or any quest, for that matter) and say "today, Aldon Axeblade wants to pick flowers by the seashore" is exactly what roleplaying is all about.

We can all argue 'til the cows come home - the different styles will remain compelling to different players. My position is they are different styles of CRPG, and while I most definitely prefer one over the other, that doesn't make the alternative an invalid choice.

All this talk about Oblivion has just made me want to give it another shot.

As for Fallout 3 I'm a bit excited about the reviews from official sources and people here. So far it sounds like it isn't exactly the Fallout we know and love but it's not that bad as just a fun game.

The only thing I don't really like the sound of is the level 20 max. From a lot of the reviews I've read once you reach level 20 there is no improving your character. The story had better be really good if I can't improve my characters skills.

What's this about the difficulty level? Is there no slider to let you adjust how difficult the game is?

I still have a few days before it reaches Taiwan, so if we could keep on the subject of Fallout 3 I would be most appreciative I value the people's opinions here on games and would like to hear more about what they think about Fallout 3 or if the reviews for it are spot on or more hype.

since the thread is thoroughly derailed I'll add my 2cts too. What was said above by Moriendor and Dhruin is my position as well, these are different types of cRPG's and I have enjoyed both in the past. What I miss (and in that sense, what my hopes for FO3 and the next TES are and were) however, is a stronger convergence of the two shools of thought. It is my conviction that sandbox games would profit from stronger emphasis on choice and consequence. Why? Ultimately I guess because I am after a good balance of entertainment and believability. It makes a game more fun to me if my actions have believable, sometimes unexpected consequences (The Witcher, Fallout). I love to have an open world to roam and discover (TES). I like to have the freedom to just make up my own agenda, to make my characters career the story (TES, M&B). The Gothics were so great to me because they are somewhere in that middle ground. With Oblivion, Bethesda somewhat went back to the pure do anything sandbox style of Daggerfall (but without the greatness of Daggerfalls character system), withering the tender shoots of choice and consequence that had grown in Morrowind, instead of developing them. That I guess is why I disliked Oblivion, and what I need to know about FO3 - where does it fall in that continuum?

Returning to Fallout 3: I don't find a way to tell the game that it should run in 1680x1050 - do you have an idea where I could do that???

rune_74 said:

Fallout 3 is fallout and guess what its insanely fun and thats all that matters.

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After my first 3 hours of playing I have to agree. I am old enough that I bought Wasteland off the shelf in 1988 and both Fallout 1 and 2 as well. They did a good job with the license.

So far it sounds like it isn't exactly the Fallout we know and love but it's not that bad as just a fun game.

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Bingo.

In my opinion it is not Oblivion with guns, it's Fallout 3. I say that because it is not 1 and 2. Technology has come too far and obviously nobody who worked on the first 2 worked on this one (At least I think so).

Nonetheless, it is a pretty good rendition of a hokey 50s style post-apoc world and definitely an RPG. Even before you leave the vault you have to make a lot of choices in dialogues and actions and with your choices of skills.

Back to playing.

It's all simple: Buggerfall, Borewind and Dumblivion were crap and Fallout 3 is great

since the thread is thoroughly derailed I'll add my 2cts too. What was said above by Moriendor and Dhruin is my position as well, these are different types of cRPG's and I have enjoyed both in the past. What I miss (and in that sense, what my hopes for FO3 and the next TES are and were) however, is a stronger convergence of the two shools of thought. It is my conviction that sandbox games would profit from stronger emphasis on choice and consequence. Why? Ultimately I guess because I am after a good balance of entertainment and believability. It makes a game more fun to me if my actions have believable, sometimes unexpected consequences (The Witcher, Fallout). I love to have an open world to roam and discover (TES). I like to have the freedom to just make up my own agenda, to make my characters career the story (TES, M&B). The Gothics were so great to me because they are somewhere in that middle ground. With Oblivion, Bethesda somewhat went back to the pure do anything sandbox style of Daggerfall (but without the greatness of Daggerfalls character system), withering the tender shoots of choice and consequence that had grown in Morrowind, instead of developing them. That I guess is why I disliked Oblivion, and what I need to know about FO3 - where does it fall in that continuum?

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I agree 100% GhanBuriGhan;
choices & consequences are the salt & pepper in a good rpg-soup.

Nikus said:

Did you play Gothic 1&2? What do you think of them compared to Oblivion?

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Excellent games as well. Although Oblivion gave me more chances to loiter *g*.

GhanBuriGhan said:

since the thread is thoroughly derailed I'll add my 2cts too. What was said above by Moriendor and Dhruin is my position as well, these are different types of cRPG's and I have enjoyed both in the past. What I miss (and in that sense, what my hopes for FO3 and the next TES are and were) however, is a stronger convergence of the two shools of thought. It is my conviction that sandbox games would profit from stronger emphasis on choice and consequence. Why? Ultimately I guess because I am after a good balance of entertainment and believability. It makes a game more fun to me if my actions have believable, sometimes unexpected consequences (The Witcher, Fallout). I love to have an open world to roam and discover (TES). I like to have the freedom to just make up my own agenda, to make my characters career the story (TES, M&B). The Gothics were so great to me because they are somewhere in that middle ground. With Oblivion, Bethesda somewhat went back to the pure do anything sandbox style of Daggerfall (but without the greatness of Daggerfalls character system), withering the tender shoots of choice and consequence that had grown in Morrowind, instead of developing them. That I guess is why I disliked Oblivion, and what I need to know about FO3 - where does it fall in that continuum?

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FO3 is much like Gothic than TES. I'd say it's a "Gothic with guns" rather than "Oblivion with guns"