Raven's Cry - Removed From Steam...Again

rune_74 said:

Now, does anyone really believe that there isn't a problem here now?

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I present some fact, you counter them with your opinion. I present more, you respond with this. How about focus on the discussion about publisher/developer relations, at least that's relevant to the topic of this thread.

crpgnut said:

I always ignore folks who call themselves "Lord" anything. Richard Garriot used to be an exception, but that was years and years ago. Also, if a thread has more than a couple posts by the same person; that's not the OP, then it is generally safe to avoid all posts past their first. It's generally somebody beating a dead horse and I hate cruelty to animals

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Well this is an RPG forum isn't it. People come up with all sorts of…idiosyncratic pseudonames. It's OK to role play a character as a sellsword, as a thief baron, or as a nutty mage, right?

Let's come to an understanding. It wouldn't be so nice if someone ignores you simply because you have a "nut" in your username assuming you are a resident of some nuthouse, would it? And let's not use vocab like dead-horse-beating, as anyone can accuse anyone posting in thread turning into personal insult war-zone as "dead-horse-beating".

Let's keep the discussion focusing on RPG and issues relevant to the industry. If not in this thread, then in others.

LordKane said:

. . . . It's hard to present some sane opinions nowadays without having some really smart individuals jumping in with nothing but insults. How about just having a discussion based on facts and educated guesses?

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That is true. On a sports forum I belong too, I argued one point and was called a moron etc etc etc.

However, I did not respond in kind. I continued to argue my point and after about the 4th or 5th counter the poster saw how ridiculous his comments looked. (In that forum all responses post under the original comment). And soon we were talking just what we perceived were the facts.

You say you want to engage in an intellectual discussion and yet you have no problem responding with attacks ad hominem, and yes some of them are counter attacks. But, if you want to have a discussion based on the facts and educated guesses why does your comments contain way more than that?

Dajjer said:

You say you want to engage in an intellectual discussion and yet you have no problem responding with attacks ad hominem, and yes some of them are counter attacks. But, if you want to have a discussion based on the facts and educated guesses why does your comments contain way more than that?

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You are right about that. That is a problem of mine. You can't counter something nonsensical effectively or in a civilized manner. Better just ignore the noise.

LordKane said:

Never heard of Reality Pump??? You've played a game and tried to defend it to the death for two years yet not knowing its developer?????? Topware is the PUB.LI.SHER of the game. Alright? Should I buy you some hearing aids? A PUB-LI-SHER. Just like Dragon Age being developed by Bioware and published by EA makes it a Bioware RPG, not an EA RPG, get it? Sure, go ahead and pull a "Never heard of Bioware, I thought Dragon Age is EA's sacred property". Witcher 2 was published by 1C in Russia--doesn't make it a Russian RPG; it's published in the West by Atari--doesn't make it a US RPG. Get it????

Are you the worst kind of troll on the Internet or just tweeting out of your ass from a wheelchair at a sanitarium? No wonder all the comments ranging from childish to deranged keep coming out that way over the years.

Yeah, don't read the rest, I doubt you have the literacy to do so, so it wasn't for you to read anyway. It's a forum in case you haven't noticed after posting thousands of random derpy derp. Hide in your own little world a little longer.

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Yes, beyond the Nazi comment in your first post then this charming one after I can't imagine why you hit a wall of people not liking your approach. I think maybe if you reported yourself then it would fix the problem

The argumentation simply fails when you're aware of the company history, structure and organisation of Topware. Most arguments are based on names and locations. But in the end its only semantics, because this whole labeling business to some point is simply window shopping or due to legal/financial reasons. It doesn't necessarily reflect the structure and organization of a company. Labels are for customers, for better recognition. It doesn't say anything about staff roles, workflow or hierarchy. To make assumptions based on public names is always highly speculative. Also, public perception doesn't always match with reality. There are many companies with subsidiaries in foreign countries that have no distinct labels. In that cases, even when a product is developed and produced completely abroad, in public opinion its still an American product when the company is headquartered in the USA. I worked for a hydro power manufacturer who does his researches in Korea and Scotland, the last one was acquired. But the product is advertised as german engineering quality. How much American are iPhones and Xbox consoles when manufactured completely by a Taiwanese company (Foxconn)?

Reality Pump was founded as Topware Programmy Sp.z.o.o. and, after the bankruptcy of the first Topware and selling to it's successor company Zuxxez (owned by the same people as Topware before), later renamed to Reality Pump. The head honcho of Topware is, at the same time, producer of Raven's Cry. He has always been producer/project coordinator/whatsoever since Reality Pump released under that name, he always took part in the development process. That includes Earth series, KnightShift and Two Worlds. He is Topware's public face, he is the communicator who got quoted from the forums all the time about changes in design and patch notes (e.g. the in/famous 30fps discussion), he was behind lawsuits against a german gaming magazine review and software pirates of Topware products. In the end it is always him, who makes the shots, since 1995.

Reality Pump isn't und has never been an independant subsidiary, it was always under control of its German parent and its management. They came to existence for the simple reason that at the time of the foundation it was cheaper to establish a studio in Poland. RP always developed its games in cooperation with the german offices and did what it was told to do. There might have been a time, when Mirosław Dymek was still Project Lead, they had also a Polish face. But Dymek has left the company, since then you never heard any developer name from RP again. It's always Hassinger.

That's why this whole nationality and responsibility discussion does not lead anywhere. Every RP game is a Topware production from the beginning, no matter where the developer resides. Topware doesn't force anything on Reality Pump, Reality Pump simply is Topware's internal programming department. And every single product is as much Polish as it is German.

BTW: The situation of Bethesda Softworks/Bethesda Game Studios/Zenimax isn't that much different. ZeniMax is simply a holding company, its CEO the same as for Bethesda Softworks (Robert Altmann). Bethesda Game Studios, to my knowledge, isn't even a company, but a name.

rune_74 said:

Yes, beyond the Nazi comment in your first post then this charming one after I can't imagine why you hit a wall of people not liking your approach. I think maybe if you reported yourself then it would fix the problem

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I think it was only getting out of hand when a certain member with the username of a marine animal jumped in to hurl nothing but personal insults. Beyond that there's hardly a "wall of people/sea of people/multi-verse of people" not liking my approach, as sensationalized above.

The reason I responded this way in text you quoted, is that I stated a fact the developer was Polish, he replied that he never heard of this developer (and there I would falsely assume he had played Two Worlds II and Raven's Cry, and defending the latter to the death somehow implied he was at least aware of who the developers were), thus rendering all my arguments invalid.

If the very few of persons fighting me (why would anybody be fighting on an online forum in the first place??) would offer detailed insights like Avantenor here, instead of calling people garbage, posting youtube videos of turd, or covering ears and go to "lala-land", none of these would have happened. But I admit, I should have ignored all those when they happened, instead of getting involved in a smear war. You are right about that.

LordKane said:

I think it was only getting out of hand when a certain member with the username of a marine animal jumped in to hurl nothing but personal insults. Beyond that there's hardly a "wall of people/sea of people/multi-verse of people" not liking my approach, as sensationalized above.

The reason I responded this way in text you quoted, is that I stated a fact the developer was Polish, he replied that he never heard of this developer (and there I would falsely assume he had played Two Worlds II and Raven's Cry, and defending the latter to the death somehow implied he was at least aware of who the developers were), thus rendering all my arguments invalid.

If the very few of persons fighting me (why would anybody be fighting on an online forum in the first place??) would offer detailed insights like Avantenor here, instead of calling people garbage, posting youtube videos of turd, or covering ears and go to "lala-land", none of these would have happened. But I admit, I should have ignored all those when they happened, instead of getting involved in a smear war. You are right about that.

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Well I guess this is as good as we are going to get.

Ugh, if only ignore would rip out quoted stuff too... Looks like he's still in full denial though, about...just about everything. :lol:

Avantenor said:

The argumentation simply fails when you're aware of the company history, structure and organisation of Topware. Most arguments are based on names and locations. But in the end its only semantics, because this whole labeling business to some point is simply window shopping or due to legal/financial reasons. It doesn't necessarily reflect the structure and organization of a company. Labels are for customers, for better recognition. It doesn't say anything about staff roles, workflow or hierarchy. To make assumptions based on public names is always highly speculative. Also, public perception doesn't always match with reality. There are many companies with subsidiaries in foreign countries that have no distinct labels. In that cases, even when a product is developed and produced completely abroad, in public opinion its still an American product when the company is headquartered in the USA. I worked for a hydro power manufacturer who does his researches in Korea and Scotland, the last one was acquired. But the product is advertised as german engineering quality. How much American are iPhones and Xbox consoles when manufactured completely by a Taiwanese company (Foxconn)?

Reality Pump was founded as Topware Programmy Sp.z.o.o. and, after the bankruptcy of the first Topware and selling to it's successor company Zuxxez (owned by the same people as Topware before), later renamed to Reality Pump. The head honcho of Topware is, at the same time, producer of Raven's Cry. He has always been producer/project coordinator/whatsoever since Reality Pump released under that name, he always took part in the development process. That includes Earth series, KnightShift and Two Worlds. He is Topware's public face, he is the communicator who got quoted from the forums all the time about changes in design and patch notes (e.g. the in/famous 30fps discussion), he was behind lawsuits against a german gaming magazine review and software pirates of Topware products. In the end it is always him, who makes the shots, since 1995.

Reality Pump isn't und has never been an independant subsidiary, it was always under control of its German parent and its management. They came to existence for the simple reason that at the time of the foundation it was cheaper to establish a studio in Poland. RP always developed its games in cooperation with the german offices and did what it was told to do. There might have been a time, when Mirosław Dymek was still Project Lead, they had also a Polish face. But Dymek has left the company, since then you never heard any developer name from RP again. It's always Hassinger.

That's why this whole nationality and responsibility discussion does not lead anywhere. Every RP game is a Topware production from the beginning, no matter where the developer resides. Topware doesn't force anything on Reality Pump, Reality Pump simply is Topware's internal programming department. And every single product is as much Polish as it is German.

BTW: The situation of Bethesda Softworks/Bethesda Game Studios/Zenimax isn't that much different. ZeniMax is simply a holding company, its CEO the same as for Bethesda Softworks (Robert Altmann). Bethesda Game Studios, to my knowledge, isn't even a company, but a name.

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This is some very detailed inside knowledge. Thank you, it has always been what I wanted for a sane debate--to think that this thread was almost taken over by haters and smear enthusiasts!

I'm aware of ZeniMax's relation and history with Bethesda as they've always been pretty transparent about that. I still think some details regarding to our discussion about the labelling is sketchy though:
You said RP is only a coding branch. I've been aware of the situation of Polish labor market perceived favorably by the West for quite some time, but by claiming it a coding division, doesn't it exclude lots of the creative processes like the design? You mentioned iPhone and xBox, weren't they both designed exclusively in the US? I'm pretty positive FoxConn has nothing to do with any of the design or other creative processes with these two. The company I work for has research labs in 30 countries but similar to your company's situation, all the products are ostensibly labelled with the parent German brand. Yet in reality, after we acquired Sybase, nobody would consider it a German database, instead it is recognized as an American one. Back to RP, I checked the credit of their games--all list Mirosław Dymek as the chief designer and head person in charge of the projects (up to the point of Iron Sky anyway), which I would assume these core processes took place in Poland. Of course I wouldn't doubt that Hassinger had always been closely involved, and labeling with nationality has less meaning in the context of multinational business, which brings us to the topic of this thread and my quarrel with joxer.

It's perfectly fine to see something in a favorable light in spite of what others may think. However, I think there are at least two layers of fallacies in joxer's eternal defense of Raven's Cry and the business practices behind it:
- First that he would defend it because he insists Raven's Cry belongs to an illustrious genre of German RPG. Let us assume this genre does have a meaningful existence for argument's sake. Shouldn't you be at least skeptical about a product with dubious (to put it kindly for this "game") quality and practices with questionable legality (the "re-launch"), just for your die-hard loyalty to this genre?? He basically chose the deny any issues and scandals brought up by various reliable community source and official action on Steam;
- Second of all, what qualifies as a German-RPG? To me, things such as "Western/European RPG" or better yet "Open world RPG" seem to be some more suitable genre categorizations. But if the German-RPG genre exists, it sounds only rational that a RPG developed in Germany, or spawned from a German pen-and-paper/tabletop game of fame (like Drakensang), or has its writing done specifically with the German language in mind should qualify. So Raven's Cry shouldn't even count as one.

Now let's talk about the shady business practices that got this re-launched title into trouble. Re-mastery/HD re-make/reboot/re-imagination/enhanced or definitive edition of a title are all fine. But if you look at virtually all the titles released as such, none of them would omit referencing the original game, especially under a new separate entity with different title while having the original reviews erased. You would have to enlighten us about the last moments of TopWare, as this looks perfectly like a last ditch cash grab before going under, especially when accusations of fake reviews emerged, which if true would be not just professionally abhorrent but legally dubious--deceptive advertising and fraudulent marketing are serious offenses. It's frankly mind-boggling to see someone serving as volunteer sworn-shields of all this based on some fallacious assumptions.

rune_74 said:

Well I guess this is as good as we are going to get.

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Compared to responses like Avantenor offered here, random one-liner replies just…ring hollow.

If you don't want to discuss any real issue, why are you here on a forum anyway. I'm inclined to believe you are not a hater, like that dude lingering around who couldn't even come up with one-liners in human languages (well, haters like him do not have an agenda or even a opinion, they just hate randomly simply because they need something to hate). Why do you care if a hater attacks me or if I give him a taste of his medicine?

Now if you intend to discuss relevant issues like Avantenor here, by all means please. Otherwise you can always offer your insights in other threads. Thanks.

Stingray said:

Ugh, if only ignore would rip out quoted stuff too… Looks like he's still in full denial though, about…just about everything. :lol:

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I don't know, but I thought his analysis of Joxer was pretty spot on.

I was surprised to see Rune defend Joxer though as he and I both have called Joxer out for the same BS in the past (unless I'm confusing him with someone else) but not as vociferously as LordKane.

sakichop said:

I don't know, but I thought his analysis of Joxer was pretty spot on.

I was surprised to see Rune defend Joxer though as he and I both have called Joxer out for the same BS in the past (unless I'm confusing him with someone else) but not as vociferously as LordKane.

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On this forum there's this peculiar phenomenon that people who think-alike fight each other over minor disagreement. Kind of a death-match mode.

And though joxer acts pretty troll-ishly, he isn't a hater, you have to give him that. He's too inconsistent in his taste to be a hater. Like any online community, other than the trolls (not a derogatory term, if you've played the Book of the Unwritten Tales 2--hell of a REAL German game, trolls can be pretty funny while being frustrating), there's this small army of shield-biting haters. They have no opinion, they just want to hate, and insults are their favorites.

joxer is definitely not a troll. He just gets overly excited sometimes, and English isn't his native language. He also has the habit of repeating certain things a bit too often.

JDR13 said:

joxer is definitely not a troll. He just gets overly excited sometimes, and English isn't his native language. He also has the habit of repeating certain things a bit too often.

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Repeating/re-iterating something is hardly a sin at least in my book, but he's very inconsistent about even his own opinions, while being very adamant and persistent in these inconsistencies--that's what frustrate people the most I think.

The most infamous example is Skyrim respawn. Most of you would agree Skyrim is a game riddled with problems like dumbed-down character development systems, bad writing, under-developed/scratched quest-lines, streamlined faction systems, console-friendly UI, rushing out of the door, etc. He ain't have no problem with all these issues. But Respawning?? For a fact, Skyrim is not a very grindy game, and it only spawns a cell 90 days after you wipe it out.

"Can I want to play a game without respawns? No! Death to Bethesda!" You know this reminds a lot of this hilarious GameSpot journalist (probably just an intern come to think of it) who interviewed Creative Assembly on E3 2013 about their upcoming Rome 2: Total War. The director of Total War had ample preparations and a very detailed video preview for the fans. But this GameSpot dude kept asking "Do I get to see some angry war elephants?" "Where are the crazy elephants?" "I want to see elephants!" "The preview is over, and you still haven't shown me crazy elephants like you promised!" What's this personal fetish?? The funniest part? The game did showcase a war elephant unit, he totally missed it while busy ranting. That's about the last time I ever read or watch anything on GameSpot, which was seldom already.

And that gives an incredibly similar feeling with joxer =D

You know what he thinks about the respawn in DA:I? Not A problemo! Uhhh, DA:I is hands down the worst offender of using instant respawn in modern RPG. People literally grow out of thin air every 1 minute or so right in front of you. It's even more transparent than some Korean meat grinder MMO.

Actually Joxer bashed DAI respawning bears and others a lot.

sakichop said:

I don't know, but I thought his analysis of Joxer was pretty spot on.

I was surprised to see Rune defend Joxer though as he and I both have called Joxer out for the same BS in the past (unless I'm confusing him with someone else) but not as vociferously as LordKane.

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Oh, it's not that he disagreed with joxer I had issues with, it was all delivery.

Won't quote just list a few things.

I am a troll. Not an usual one though, but I think I am. If it matters.

Rune defneds me? If WW3 didn't start, soon will.

Someone (deliberately?) skipped details on me vs Skyrim respawns, generally. It's the dragon above Mages' Guild that got on my nerves, not other respawns. But even that thing isn't such a problem thanks to norespawn mod made by the people like me who despise godlike trashmobs designs.
My actual problem with Skyrim is it's crapload of bugs never fixed by it's developer. That can look inconsistent, but it's not really, I'm allergic to bug-o-ramas. There will always be something bugged in a game, especially openworld RPGs, but Skyrim's amount of bugs made me to completely forget about Ultima Ascension release. In fact I can't remember any other game in past ten years that had so many bugs inside.

Hope this sets it, now please return to Raven's Cry before it goes even more offtopic.

LordKane said:

Now let's talk about the shady business practices that got this re-launched title into trouble. Re-mastery/HD re-make/reboot/re-imagination/enhanced or definitive edition of a title are all fine. But if you look at virtually all the titles released as such, none of them would omit referencing the original game, especially under a new separate entity with different title while having the original reviews erased. You would have to enlighten us about the last moments of TopWare, as this looks perfectly like a last ditch cash grab before going under, especially when accusations of fake reviews emerged, which if true would be not just professionally abhorrent but legally dubious--deceptive advertising and fraudulent marketing are serious offenses. It's frankly mind-boggling to see someone serving as volunteer sworn-shields of all this based on some fallacious assumptions.

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The old Topware was a big player in the unpleasant and shady business practice sector. It includes terms like price dumping, copyright violation, shell company, tax fraud, pretrial imprisonment and probation. But to be fair, from a customer perspective, there also was benefit in their actions, mostly monetary. From what I know, they never tried to deceive their customers and have always been client-friendly towards their paying customers. For example, they always included fan feedback and every customer who bought Raven's Cry got a free upgrade to Vendetta. On the downside, they never tried to be everybody's darling and, as a result, could behave like trolls. Especially, I think, when they felt to be treated unfair. And I guess, they felt treated unfair when it came to reviews about Raven's Cry.

As we are speaking, it seems the parent holding company of Topware yesterday filed for insolvency. That's unfortunate, since I hoped to buy Vendetta at some point for a lower price.

Seems some actual info and not rumors and speculations emerged, but it's written in german so I'm not sure if I'm understanding it correctly. Seems that Topware filed for bakrupcy:
http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/vende...y/news/topware_interactive,53003,3267337.html

This doesn't explain Vendetta removal from Steam as older games like Two Worlds 2 are still available in Steam store.