Dead State - DoubleBear Review Controversy

MigRib said:

BUT, as I was saying, I do believe most people defending Doube Bear are doing it because this is one of the small time studios making the games they like. Old school, isometric perspective, turn-based, tactical RPG, in this case, but it could also be some kind of quirky little game. No matter, as long as it is not one of those awful 3rd person, open world games the AAA studios like so much… I'm pretty sure that if the case in question involved one of the few non-old school/ pixel art/whatever the name of the quirky little game the response would not be the same. Probably no one would care about the subject anyway, and if they did there would be no such love for the small fish.

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It does not hold: the game is not old school and has a different approach on the strategical side.
Some posts on this site refer to that point.

Beside, the quality is far, but far, from what could be found in the referenced gaming genre.
Actually, players who would want to get their old school game should destroy this product as it is so far from the old standards in everything.

The game is dogmatically defended by proponents of the crowdfunding movement and possibly, by involved parties.

You guys really are a bunch of pricks. You guys better hope karma isn't real and an angry, rabid, unforgiving, and uncaring mob doesn't repeatedly kick you in the teeth and goes for the coupe de grace when life knocks you down and you think thinks can't get worse.

This thread stinks like last week's trash when someone threw out a whole pot of pork n' sauerkraut.

PegasusOrgans said:

I have never read anything truer, and on the internet, the dicks multiply
a thousand fold. I can't stand forums or comments sections anymore
because of this. Anyone who thinks Dead State is "not a game" or
far buggier than your average Bethesda release should not be given
any platform to spread their opinion because they have lost all ability
to be objective, and the internet standard for what counts as "objectivity"
is abysmally low as it is. This, like the #GamerGate joke makes me sick
that I ever counted myself as a gamer, as they are a hateful and ignorant
bunch of cowards hiding behind their keyboards as they systematically
destroy peoples lives. Hopefully DB recover and continue working on Dead
State, but I could hardly blame them if the attacks became too much.

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It could be a matter of opinion, but it is not. A game by Bethesda as buggy as this one? I never had so many CTDs with any game EVER as with Dead State. Some resquests from NPCs appear in the "to do list", some never do, without any reasoning behind why some do and some don't. Some objectives are scratched from the "to do list" before they are achieved and some never get scratched although they were completed long ago. Sometimes combat mode is on although there are no enemies in sight (or any enemies in the map). As an example, after killing every living and dead soul in the Militia HQ the combat mode was still on. After leaving the place and coming back the fighting mode went imediately on when returning to the Militia HQ. And don't get me started on the god damned stairs... All stairs, everywhere. And combat. I usually dislike tactical combat, but Dead State takes my dislike to unknown heights.
The story is OK, some characters have character, the management bit is a chore, but when the NPCs don't whine about bad things that never happened or the lack of good things that are already done, the morning dialogues are (sometimes) a good thing. Everything else is rubbish. This game is not complete. Will it ever be? Maybe, but I doubt that.

Bubbles said:

You guys really are a bunch of pricks. You guys better hope karma isn't real and an angry, rabid, unforgiving, and uncaring mob doesn't repeatedly kick you in the teeth and goes for the coupe de grace when life knocks you down and you think thinks can't get worse.

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And someone said Steam topics are full of trash posters...

Bubbles said:

You guys really are a bunch of pricks. You guys better hope karma isn't real and an angry, rabid, unforgiving, and uncaring mob doesn't repeatedly kick you in the teeth and goes for the coupe de grace when life knocks you down and you think thinks can't get worse.

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I'm not sure what to think about this... Don't you think this is a bit of errrr.... overreacting? The only Steam post that I saw about Dead State (apparently the one, or one of those, which was censored) was polite enough to consider the game "a blast". It does criticize the game and the developers for letting an buggy game come out of early access too soon, but I can't see where "an angry, rabid, unforgiving, and uncaring mob" kicks someone in the teeth and kills Double Bears devs. People are getting WAY too sensitive about posts... The politically correctedness and the crazy fear of cyberbullying, cyberstalking and cyberwhatever is turning people into whimps who cry over a simples criticism.

Actually, in this very forum, it's not the people who are critical of the game that are swearing and abusing others, but in fact those who are seemingly defending DB and Annie are cyber-bullying others. It's natural they will vindicate Annie's stand, because they themselves resort to base emotions and name calling when unable to explain valid points raised by the reviewer. Ironically, they seemingly want to convey the point "not to harass the developers" (which no one did) by insulting and looking down on others, while pretending to take some sort of moral high stand!! Lol.

^ I have to agree, it looks as if some folks need to calm down, and understand that others are entitled to have differing opinions than theirs.

Throwing temper tantrums isn't going to solve anything, (or shut people up, by the way)

You guys are funny.

PegasusOrgans said:

Anyone who thinks Dead State is "not a game" or
far buggier than your average Bethesda release should not be given
any platform to spread their opinion because they have lost all ability
to be objective, and the internet standard for what counts as "objectivity"
is abysmally low as it is.

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On this forum, everything is subjective. This is another story, though.
Back to the point: here's the situation.
Put some money in the project and worse at the time, spend some time to achieve the conclusion that this product is not a game in an objective way.
By a game, it means an object characterized by gameplay.
If some argumentation can be made to show that this product is a game by showing that it deploys the gameplay required by the settings, I'll take.
I'd buy that actually.

Bubbles said:

You guys really are a bunch of pricks. You guys better hope karma isn't real and an angry, rabid, unforgiving, and uncaring mob doesn't repeatedly kick you in the teeth and goes for the coupe de grace when life knocks you down and you think thinks can't get worse.

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Karma is not real. Yet the situation might be seen as satisfying in a way it is useless to rely on karma.

Players pay to try the product. It might be conceded that backers give up on the possibility to get a product corresponding with the specifications (it is not the case but is treated as if)
The other buyers do not relinquish that possibility though.

And then, the situation: putting back people to their position. Watch out! you, buyers, thought you were entitled not to get a product and you forgot you were not entitled to report a failure as the failure it is.

In the end, that is what some people pay: to be called names by some other people who never miss to push those buyers back to their position.
Shouldnt the situation be already perceived as satisfying?being subsidized in an entitlement, being paid to call people names and remind them they are entitled to one thing: shutting their mouth up.
Being demanding is one thing, being over demanding is another.

Nobody here (and probably elsewhere) has started a campaign for refunding. So speaking of destroying people's life...

Another point: this forum has a low visibility. Posts on this forum are unlikely to influence anyone in not buying the game.
I could have written my posts on this products and go and read them to penguins on the South pole with the same effect.
The sales performance of this product is not negatively affected by what is written here.
The Steam review has influence. Here, it is a different story.

Aditya said:

^ Except that the reviewer did NOT attack the developers even once.

Here is his original review:

http://i.imgur.com/uDsDJte.jpg?1

There are no personal insults, no trolling, no harassment or threats.

And no one gets censored or banned for calling a product bad even for AAA game
developers. Hell, thousand people heavily criticized Ubisoft for Assassin's Creeed: Unity and Bioware/EA regarding the patch fiasco for DA: Inquisition. BOTH tendered an apology to customers and in fact Ubisoft freely offered one of their latest games to all those who pre-ordered Unity.





I agree to both the posts above. People here routinely criticise Bethesda for their buggy state of games…one forum user especially talks ONLY about bugs in all his posts. Imagine if Pete Hines calls out on him (a "troll" in his view) on his Twitter: "F!@k Off douche, I had only 3 hrs of sleep and I am oh-so-EXHAUSTED..I don't need to listen to all this crap from some dickbag like you" How would the valiant knights of the RPGWatch respond?? Would they defend Pete saying "…but..but..he only a HUMAN..humans make mistakes!" or they would expect some professionalism on his part while dealing with this issue? We all know what the answer is. But I guess some people love their double standards.

Running an indie studio does NOT excuse you from being professional, especially when you charge for your products like all other competitors our there.

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So did you even bother to read the review you quoted? That snippet is 90 percent criticism of the company and it's actions. Multiple times the poster berated the developers, and even demanded an apology from them. That is a no no and should get your "review" removed. Once you start attacking the company behind a game, you've crossed the line. Now if you can't understand that, then you've got issues that go beyond this topic

Did you guys read her blog post? http://murderblonde.tumblr.com/

If, after you read that, you still think she and her company needs to be destroyed for what happened then there really is no need for further argument. You are just heartless and cruel. Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people fall down and need a little help getting up, not a kick in the teeth while they are down.

Thrasher said:

Once you start attacking the company behind a game, you've crossed the line.

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This is the most hilarious thing I read whole day today! You are basically advising people to be silent sufferers? I don't see that attitude when it comes to other developers..

First of all, it wasn't an "attack" in any form. Don't blindly believe what some overtly emotional female claims on her twitter account, to gain sympathy. The reviewer was a beta tester (hence in the know of the buggy state of the game, more than an average user), and said he loved the game but has come to dislike the malpractices followed by DB and hence cautioning other users before they commit purchase. He has faith in Kickstarter funded games but is worried that developers like DB might set a wrong precedent of releasing unfinished and buggy games right on the verge of holidays to encash. He voiced his opinion in a civil way. If you think asking for an apology for DB's wrongdoings justifies ban and public abuse, then you must question your own moral compass.

Someone better call the Colonel, this thread is becoming too silly.

Bubbles said:

Did you guys read her blog post? http://murderblonde.tumblr.com/

If, after you read that, you still think she and her company needs to be destroyed for what happened then there really is no need for further argument. You are just heartless and cruel. Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people fall down and need a little help getting up, not a kick in the teeth while they are down.

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Market decides what will happen. We are just saying she should have known better than go and publicly attack one of her buyers. Customer is always right is not used all over the world for nothing.

Side point on 'free speech'. The Constitution guarantees the right to free speech — with conditions. There are laws against defamation, slander, sedition, inciting to violence, and threats. With free speech comes responsibility and conditions.

But you will notice that said free speech does not come with a guarantee of access to any specific forum except for 'freedom of the press'. Therefore, you can publish whatever you wish in accordance with legal guidelines. But you can't force a media outlet to give you access via their channels, whether radio, TV, internet forum or whatever. So Double Bear was within its rights to ask Steam to take down any review it didn't like. Steam was free to comply with their wish or deny the request.

Now that decision may not sit well with many readers, but there was no 'censorship' involved. It's commerce in action. If people want to get together and slag Double Bear and its employees, they are free to do so — on their own website and/or forums. They can take to Twitter, email, personal phone calls, Facebook, whatever, and yammer all they want. No one is denying them the right to do so.

Lastly, if you buy a game and don't like it, consider the money lost as an investment in your consumer education. Talk to friends, watch some YouTube play-throughs or Twitch TV streams before spending your hard earned cash, then maybe you'll be less disappointed and so easily offended.

Aditya said:

This is the most hilarious thing I read whole day today! You are basically advising people to be silent sufferers? I don't see that attitude when it comes to other developers..

First of all, it wasn't an "attack" in any form. Don't blindly believe what some overtly emotional female claims on her twitter account, to gain sympathy. The reviewer was a beta tester (hence in the know of the buggy state of the game, more than an average user), and said he loved the game but has come to dislike the malpractices followed by DB and hence cautioning other users before they commit purchase. He has faith in Kickstarter funded games but is worried that developers like DB might set a wrong precedent of releasing unfinished and buggy games right on the verge of holidays to encash. He voiced his opinion in a civil way. If you think asking for an apology for DB's wrongdoings justifies ban and public abuse, then you must question your own moral compass.

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Apparently you have a reading comprehensive problem. A game review is NOT for shellacking a company or it's members. If you want to trash a company don't do it in a game review. It's really very simple. capisce?

^ Who gets to decide what exactly should a review contain? If while reviewing a game, saying that I like it, but also comment on its buggy status and additionally shed light on some malpractices to inform other buyers, then it becomes invalid? Why reviews exist if not to educate potential buyers, providing proper info? Noteworthy is that I am not slandering anyone, calling names, insulting or anything of that sorts.

About reading comprehension, it's a sign of sorts why *you* would selectively read only parts of my post and avoid answering the particular questions raised by me or the reviewer, and instead raise a strawman of technicalities about what a review "should" contain..you won't do it unless you have favourable bias with the developer, but that is beyond this topic, no?

The posting rules are here.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=4045-USHJ-3810

Offensive or inappropriate reviews can be removed based on the discretion of the moderators.

So much anger over so little.