Mass Effect 3 - New content will offer "more clarity"


I'm wondering whether you've both been indoctrinated :)

Seriously, Deus Ex HR got lots of fan criticism. The devs quickly responded and basically apologized. No hiding behind crocodile tear stained 'artistic integrity' pronouncements. Don't recall any closing of threads or bans. Similarly Fallout 3 got plenty of criticism. Don't recall Bethesda making a big deal out of that, trying to demonize customers, hiding behind sobs of 'artistic integrity', closing threads, banning posters, etc. Bethesda modified the ending with what turned out to be a dlc well worth playing (without creating a forum soap opera over the whole thing). Don't recall Bethesda doing thread closing or poster banning with Skyrim either.

IMO Bioware brings this stuff on themselves with how they handle criticism in the forums; Dr. Ray Muzyka's never-ending surprise (and now sadness) in response to negative fan feedback that he, himself, has repeatedly solicited; etc.

EDIT — Google search for site:social.bioware.com lockdown -> over 94,000 hits. Clearly not all relevant. Neverthless, even assuming a very low percentage of relevant hits and a lockdown count as low as a few thousand; not exactly a picture of patience IMO. Moreover, IMO the most likely actual lockdown count at social.bioware.com significantly exceeds the "few thousand" assumption.

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If they charge for an alternative ending it would be a step too far, no? The good part of me wants to believe that something like this would never happen, but at this point nothing could really surprise me.

I enjoy Bioware games more than Bethesda ones because I prefer the way Bioware creates and fleshes out characters - but then I see and compare how these two companies spend their post-launch time: Bethesda is rolling a patch after patch for Skyrim and there isn't even 1 DLC out yet.
 
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It doesn't sound like they inted to add new endings, more like little bits to the existing one (yes, supposedly there is several endings, but that's just sematics. For all intents and purposes, there is only one).

IMO this whole "artistic integrity" thing is a bit more complicated than a lot of people let on. On the other hand, I don't really like the idea of stories written by majority vote. Then again, this just looks too much like a "get free out of jail" card to me. How much can you talk about "artistic vision" when the story is written by several people, some of which had different plans for the ending altogeter and aren't happy about this either? http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/318210/20120322/mass-effect-3-ending-spoilers-bioware-forums.htm
 
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It doesn't sound like they inted to add new endings, more like little bits to the existing one (yes, supposedly there is several endings, but that's just sematics. For all intents and purposes, there is only one).

IMO this whole "artistic integrity" thing is a bit more complicated than a lot of people let on. On the other hand, I don't really like the idea of stories written by majority vote. Then again, this just looks too much like a "get free out of jail" card to me. How much can you talk about "artistic vision" when the story is written by several people, some of which had different plans for the ending altogeter and aren't happy about this either? http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/318210/20120322/mass-effect-3-ending-spoilers-bioware-forums.htm

Notice how everyone says its fake and bioware denies its true. So who knows but I don't doubt what was written it makes perfect sense. It was not the original planned ending anyway that we got.
 
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I'm wondering whether you've both been indoctrinated :)

Seriously, Deus Ex HR got lots of fan criticism. The devs quickly responded and basically apologized. No hiding behind crocodile tear stained 'artistic integrity' pronouncements. Don't recall any closing of threads or bans. Similarly Fallout 3 got plenty of criticism. Don't recall Bethesda making a big deal out of that, trying to demonize customers, hiding behind sobs of 'artistic integrity', closing threads, banning posters, etc. Bethesda modified the ending with what turned out to be a dlc well worth playing (without creating a forum soap opera over the whole thing). Don't recall Bethesda doing thread closing or poster banning with Skyrim either.

Most publishers simply don't permit threads about boycotts, lawsuits, refunds, etc. on their own forums.

Bioware let people run wild with that stuff and perhaps those movements wouldn't have taken off as much if they had shut down those discussion topics.


IMO Bioware brings this stuff on themselves with how they handle criticism in the forums; Dr. Ray Muzyka's never-ending surprise (and now sadness) in response to negative fan feedback that he, himself, has repeatedly solicited; etc.

I disagree. Bioware is much more permissive of extreme fan criticism than most other developers and publishers (they let folks attempt to organize boycotts, demands for refunds, BBB/FTC complaints, etc., on their own forum).
 
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Lots of people want to turn this whole issue into "entitled nerds harass poor artists because they just want to marry their waifus lololol look how much smarter I am".

It's just more complicated than that. A lot of these complaints have merit. http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=15395

Thanks for the link. I agree with most of the article. Sadly like you said a majority of people just think we want butterfly endings. The media is also doing everything they can to paint us as entitled nerds. I just love professional journalism.
 
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Thanks for the link. I agree with most of the article. Sadly like you said a majority of people just think we want butterfly endings. The media is also doing everything they can to paint us as entitled nerds. I just love professional journalism.

Everyone loves opportunities for cheap shots...
 
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Sadly like you said a majority of people just think we want butterfly endings.

Unfortunately I do.

Which makes me even more an alien here. ;)
 
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Most publishers simply don't permit threads about boycotts, lawsuits, refunds, etc. on their own forums....

...Bioware is much more permissive of extreme fan criticism than most other developers and publishers (they let folks attempt to organize boycotts, demands for refunds, BBB/FTC complaints, etc., on their own forum).

Do you have any evidence to support any of your claims that "most other publishers don't permit threads about boycotts, lawsuits, refunds, etc. on their own forums"?

or evidence to support your hyperbolic claims that that Bioware is much more permissive than most other developers and publishers?

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The entire "artistic integrity" argument is more than a little misleading; particularly in this case when the argument is made by a corporate official of BioWare and EA.

Mass Effect 3 is a "work made for hire" according to the copyright laws. That means that BioWare is the "author" and the "owner" of the work. In turn, it is BioWare, and only BioWare, who can decide the content of the work, and who is responsible for the content of the work.

Muzyka is an officer of BioWare, and is therefore responsible for the content of Mass Effect 3. Although he might have delegated some of his corporate responsibilities to various BioWare employees, he remains responsible for those decisions and can overrule them at any time.

In other words, all decisions regarding content of ME3, are and must be the responsibilities of BioWare's corporate officers. In turn, members of the ME3 team are simply carrying out the decisions of the corporation.

As an officer of BioWare, Muzyka also has special, "fiduciary", responsibilities to the shareholders of the corporation (the shareholders of EA), to ensure that the actions of BioWare are reasonably calculated to maximize profit for the shareholders.

In sum, decisions as to ME3 content are Muzyka's (and other corporate officers) responsibilities. Muzyka and other corporate officers are required to make these decisions in a manner reasonably calculated to maximize return to the shareholders (not to maximize 'artistic integrity'). 'Artistic Integrity' is nothing more than a smokescreen being used by Muzyka as cover for his own decisions and responsibilities.

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As kind of a joke, a couple of us indies have decided to respond to this controversy by changing our game endings to "add more clarity" as well…

Frayed Knights Gets a New Ending

So we're, you know, just like Bioware. Except insignificant.

Curses RampantCoyote! I had been interested in Frayed Knights and got sidetracked so I didn't buy it and but now I will have to buy it. Just give me some humor and I cave :D

Celeste
 
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I'm surprised people care so much.
You mean that people want to have a meaningful ending to a nonsensical story? Most people just don't like open threads. I personally don't care that much, as I cannot reach the point of suspension of disbelief in ME3, anyway.
 
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I'm surprised people care so much.

1/ this is about the only trilogy of games where you were asked to make loads of decisions, those decisions were recorded/carried forward, and you were told that these decisions would make a big difference. People spent hundreds of hours replaying ME1 and 2 to get "The Perfect Save", presumably to achieve their goals at the end.

2/ the art and sound is excellent and the story and lore good enough to get millions heavily "invested". They wanted to know if the geth and quarians got lasting peace, if the krogans would go on the rampage after you cured the genophage. Also, it would have been nice if most of your companions didn't die / disappear.

3/ people play games for escapist fun, not to boost the profits of anti-depressant pharma companies.

4/ if not for the ending, this would have been one of the great "RPG" (esque) trilogies ever. If it had ended without leaving a foul taste (of trampled lore, retconned decisions, dead heroes etc), it could have spawned successful movies, books, more RPGs etc. Now that's never going to happen.
 
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My take on this is that we will probably see a statement released either before, during or just after PAX 2012 in April 2012. And in it, Bioware will say something like *we're fixing the game etc. and the endings as well.* and also this maybe: *we're making a patch to include the cut content - or most of it.*

As for the endings, I've written on the Bioware forums that the endings to a video game shouldn't require you to have a degree in litterary analysis or narrative structure in a video game just to understand them. And Bioware wants to break rpg conventions and not have an end boss, they should have said so and explained why they felt this way.
I've also explained that while I feel the ending (I've watched on youtube) are fine and all, I can understand why people get confused and bewildered. Down from the Sky (Heaven?) comes this ghost in the machine kid who we haven't about before? Not cool....
 
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Do you have any evidence to support any of your claims that "most other publishers don't permit threads about boycotts, lawsuits, refunds, etc. on their own forums"?
Yep, bethesda, for example, does not permit this on their forum, and I would be surprised if there are any other major publishers that would permit threads about class action lawsuits, refunds, boycotts, etc. The only one I am familiar with that permits such topics is Bioware.

or evidence to support your hyperbolic claims that that Bioware is much more permissive than most other developers and publishers?
They are "more permissive" by simple virtue of permitting those types of discussion topics.

Personally, if I was an exec at a publisher or developer, I would do the same. It's one thing to invite criticism and complaints about various aspects of a game, but I don't see any benefit in permitting people to organize lawsuits, boycotts, BBB/FTC complaints, etc., on your own private forum.
 
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I find it hard to believe that EA\Bioware is more tolerant of those types of threads than other developers in general. My guess is that they just didn't want to add more fuel to the fire by locking threads.
 
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Yep, bethesda, for example, does not permit this on their forum, and I would be surprised if there are any other major publishers that would permit threads about class action lawsuits, refunds, boycotts, etc. The only one I am familiar with that permits such topics is Bioware.


They are "more permissive" by simple virtue of permitting those types of discussion topics.

Personally, if I was an exec at a publisher or developer, I would do the same. It's one thing to invite criticism and complaints about various aspects of a game, but I don't see any benefit in permitting people to organize lawsuits, boycotts, BBB/FTC complaints, etc., on your own private forum.

Here's a link to a post on Bethesda forums asking for a refund and claiming the customer is being scammed by Bethesda. It's not a big deal. People get mad. But usually if you make an attempt to hear them out, and do what you can to help, they turn out to be forgiving and understanding even if you don't solve their problem. They want someone to pay attention and care about their problem. Even if you fail they generally will give you credit for trying to help.

BioWare, bless their hearts, has a tendency to become defensive about complaints, and quite often aggressively goes after people who complain. They often sit idly by while their fans attack anyone who complains. It's not a happy atmosphere.

If you read the Takebackmasseffect thread that was closed, you'll see that the customers bent over backwards to be kind and understanding of views other than their own. They continually reminded all who posted there to be fair and courteous. But the forum at large has treated them as spoiled children. Mazyka went out of his way to talk about people who didn't complain nicely. But much more than the vast majority of this group attempted to be fair and courteous above all else. I kid you not.

These were some of BioWare's strongest and most committed fans. Now they've been ostracized and berated in the forums. BioWare is killing a huge opportunity to increase sales. These customers are becoming totally alienated. Meanwhile BioWare has also set themselves up to be a scapegoat when they do make changes to the ending by encouraging people to argue against changing the ending; to ignore those children who believe they are entitled to dictate the game ending; making a big deal of 'artistic integrity' even though it is virtually irrelevant in this instance.

By the way, the Community Relations Manager at Bioware Forums goes by the self styled moniker of "Evil" ("Evil" Chris Priestly). I'm sure this is meant to be humorous, but honestly, this isn't particularly brilliant.

Having said that, I apologize for coming on too strong with your comments here. You seem to be a "good guy" with nearly always pleasant and kind posts. The kind of poster that makes any forum enjoyable. You definitely add a lot to the forums here. It is completely in character with your posts, that I've seen here, that you want to see and believe the best in the BioWare folks. I respect that.

Rightly or wrongly, I think you would handle forums and controversy much better than BioWare has of late.

Believe it or not, I don't want to see BioWare fail. Rightly or wrongly I just honestly believe that BioWare has a tendency to be BioWare's own worst enemy.

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The thread you linked to is locked. :p

It is completely in character with your posts, that I've seen here, that you want to see and believe the best in the BioWare folks. I respect that.

I don't necessarily believe Bioware employees were being nice or kind to let people run rampant with boycott and FTC complaint threads. Perhaps they were simply overwhelmed, or maybe they have some sort of policy in place to permit this type of thread.

I wonder if they had been more aggressive about closing those topics, maybe the "take back" movement might not have taken off as rapidly. If I were a PR exec there, I would have been inclined to have the mods shut down many of those threads.

At any rate, I look forward to seeing what sort of "clarity" changes the devs will propose for the new ending.
 
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