Skyrim - Why It Should Be Your GotY

kalniel said:

There's more to the series than just two games, though it seems a lot of people assume that anyone who played Morrowind is suddenly an expert on the series and a long term fan. There is this well documented see-saw between TES products - fans of Daggerfall didn't all like Morrowind, and for the size of the forums the vitriol around Morrowind was HUGE. Many (but not all) people who enjoyed Daggerfall and Arena preferred Oblivion to Morrowind, as the world setting was more in keeping with the series. However, those new fans who came on board with Morrowind didn't like the return with Oblivion..

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I'm well aware of how many games are in the series. The earlier posts mentioned Morrowind specifically though, and that's what I was responding to. What I said applies to all the TES games.

I enjoyed Daggerfall quite a bit myself, although I never came close to finishing it. I could easily see it being my favorite game if it had worked the way it was intended to. If that DaggerXL project ever gets finished, I would love to attempt a full playthrough.

I'm definitely not going to read the "article" but the title already bothers me.
What is the practical use of declaring an unpublished game "my GotY"?
Why would anyone care? If he just means "why Skyrim will probably be good" why not say that instead of trying to mess with me? They're trying to bait morons it seems.

JemyM said:

This is a summary of everything thats wrong with modern reviewsites.

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I wholeheartedly agree.


And, besides, the trailers still very few about the story.

The result might be like a good looking meal with few nutricious value (spelling ?).

Except ... Everyone who wants to kill dragons - this game might be for them.
Showing the expertise of the own might & power by slying the BY FAR powerfullest creatures : Dragons.

The EXACT opposite of the message of the movie "How to train your Dragon" !

Fraper said:

Not anymore as according to Devs Skyrim will have mod support PC<>Consoles

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They said they might look into it or something like that, if i remember it correctly..
I can see how it would work with simpler mods, but most of the more advanced mods for Morrowind, Oblivion and FO requires third party programs.

vurt said:

They said they might look into it or something like that, if i remember it correctly..
I can see how it would work with simpler mods, but most of the more advanced mods for Morrowind, Oblivion and FO requires third party programs.

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Didn't they just say that there's no change in the way data files work for the console versions, so in theory it would work with plugins the same way the PC version does? That does nothing to solve the distribution/permission problem.

JDR13 said:

So you're assuming that all of those fans played both games? It sounds like you're making that statement based on sales alone. I think you're smarter than that.

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I'm saying Oblivion was tremendously successful, more successful than any TES game before it both commercially and critically. I am also saying that yes, taken from all platforms and all gamers I bet more people who played both prefer Oblivion than Morrowind. There's no real way to calculate that, but if there were I would bet a lot of money that I was right. Morrowind sold a LOT on the Xbox let's remember, that's why Oblivion was Xbox-focused (and sold a LOT a LOT). Also not all PC gamers or even PC RPG players think like we do here.

In any case I am not making a value statement, I prefer Morrowind to Oblivion. I am just saying when people act like Oblivion was a failure it's amusingly bias. Same with people who disliked Doom 3 acting like it was a big flop when it sold and reviewed outstandingly well. I'm simply saying frame the discussion better… say "I didn't like Oblivion" rather than "Oblivion was a huge failure."

Ah the blind faith of a brand name and the spirit of the fanboy. Just because a certain company makes a product it has to be good. Its no wonder the larger studios get free passes even when there games are to put it bluntly crap.

I like to play there game first and usually then decide it its good though I do admit I get sucked into some games myself . But lately my interest in games is dwindling and I find myself becoming more cynical to my once loved hobby. Carry on people rant over.

Couchpotato said:

Ah the blind faith of a brand name and the spirit of the fanboy. Just because a certain company makes a product it has to be good. Its no wonder the larger studios get free passes even when there games are to put it bluntly crap.

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It's actually relatively logical to count on a dev team that has made games you liked in the past making more games you like now. Think of it like a director in movies... if you liked all of Ridley Scott's movies for 10 years or so wouldn't you naturally want to see his next movie? Wouldn't it then take at least one or two stinkers in a row to change your mind?

I loved Daggerfall, Morrowind and Fallout 3. While Oblivion was worse than those I still enjoyed playing it for the exploration. It is only natural that I look forward to playing Skyrim.

That said I am guessing you were responding to the GOTY statement, which is indeed stupid.

DoctorNarrative said:

I am also saying that yes, taken from all platforms and all gamers I bet more people who played both prefer Oblivion than Morrowind. There's no real way to calculate that, but if there were I would bet a lot of money that I was right.

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Then I would happily accept that bet, as every poll I've seen showed more people preferring Morrowind. You're right about there being no way to really know though, which makes your original statement all the more puzzling to me.

DoctorNarrative said:

I am just saying when people act like Oblivion was a failure it's amusingly bias. Same with people who disliked Doom 3 acting like it was a big flop when it sold and reviewed outstandingly well. I'm simply saying frame the discussion better… say "I didn't like Oblivion" rather than "Oblivion was a huge failure."

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Well that's nice and all, except I don't see anyone here saying that.

Motoki said:

Also never mind that there were zero choices and consequences.

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Not that bad. RP is about B&C (behaviour and consequences) C&C is a dramatic reduction certain developpers adopted as delivering on C&C is much easier than B&C.

DoctorNarrative said:

It's actually relatively logical to count on a dev team that has made games you liked in the past making more games you like now. Think of it like a director in movies… if you liked all of Ridley Scott's movies for 10 years or so wouldn't you naturally want to see his next movie? Wouldn't it then take at least one or two stinkers in a row to change your mind?

I loved Daggerfall, Morrowind and Fallout 3. While Oblivion was worse than those I still enjoyed playing it for the exploration. It is only natural that I look forward to playing Skyrim.

That said I am guessing you were responding to the GOTY statement, which is indeed stupid.

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Again you get it wrong just because a company you claim has a good reputation there games have to good. I think not just look at the large developers lately and the crap that keeps getting released. I dont buy games or watch movies because of the director or based on brand loyalty.

I except the same style of game they always release open world games with poor story elements. Fun if you have 200 hrs to spare just exploring and boring if you want to play a story driven campaign. I never finished any of there Elder scroll games. Fallout 3 was there only game I enjoyed.

I get you love the game industry and are more tolerate of there flaws me on the other hand I'm not.

DoctorNarrative said:

Well, I'm not really sure that's true. I don't think we have any kind of hard data on that either. Either way though it's not really what I said… the point is Oblivion is by far the most popular game in the series and by far the best selling, so when core RPG enthusiasts try to act like it was a failure of some kind it makes me chuckle.

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Not so fast.
(I´ll just conveniently reduce this to Morrowind and Oblivion.)
First, what kind of hard data do you have?
Sales figures won´t cut it because market conditions were different for each game´s release, marketing tools evolved from 2002 to 2006 and Bethesda certainly took no prisoners in this regard for Oblivion and, at last but not least, Oblivion´s sales figures were greatly influenced by the success of previous games in the series, Morrowind in particular.
The sole fact Oblivion sold more than Morrowind does not mean majority of people who played both prefer Oblivion.

Second, when "RPG enthusiasts try to act like it was a failure of some kind", the "some kind" part is crucial - few people deny Oblivion was a financial success, but a lot more think it was a creative failure.

DoctorNarrative said:

YOU might not like it. I didn't really like it either. But it is by far the biggest and best TES game according to the vast majority of fans.

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Fans of what?
Fans of RPGs? Fans of TES? Obviously these polls have very limited informative value, but still.

The point is, until you have some reliable data made from sample of people big and diverse enough, your claim that, to paraphrase, "for the vast majority Oblivion was by far the best" does not hold much water.
I think it´s safe to say Oblivion was the best TES game for people who haven´t played any other and that´s it.


As for the original topic, this was my favorite part:

On top of the ever changing quest givers, the quests you complete actively shape the rest of the world of Skyrim. Lets say you just got back from a cave where you killed a bunch of rats, only to find out the shopkeep’s son has a problem with rats in a cave. Oblivion would either have you complete the quest now, as you completed the primary objective, but not in Skyrim. Skyrim puts you in a completely new cave and rewrites the game as you go. Suck on that Gamefaqs.

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(this is a joke article, right?)

kalniel said:

Didn't they just say that there's no change in the way data files work for the console versions, so in theory it would work with plugins the same way the PC version does? That does nothing to solve the distribution/permission problem.

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I mean with third party .exe files (Script Extenders), which are needed for many Oblivion and FO3/NV mods.

The writer should change his website to "posting irresponsibly". He was actually successful in his goal: He got folks who dislike TES ranting about his gall. His website probably got more hits from this "article" than anything else he's attempted. He also lured to gullible into visiting. Success.

I'm one of many, many, many, folks who enjoyed Daggerfall more than Morrowind. I enjoyed Oblivion more than either. The bottom line is that Bethesda markets very well and will likely win many GoTY awards for Skyrim. Will it really be the best game? Who knows? When it comes to consoles, I'm not sure how much competition Bethesda has. The Witcher 2 will have something to say about PC RPG's of the Year, but I'm not sure if Bethesda cares about how they rate with the PC crowd.

If Todd wasn't being facetious, then 90% of their customers are console players. I personally find that hard to believe because there are thousands of mods for Oblivion and they're still being downloaded heavily, even today. Of course, that's 90% of their paying customers. What percentage of the mod download community is lowlife scum pirates?

Skyrim will probably be my personal GoTY, because I'm a big fan of exploration and Bethesda's always had that in spades. The Witcher 2 is more linear by nature and focused on telling Geralt's story, and this will cost them when it comes to my personal tastes.

I can't imagine Skyrim scoring higher than TW2 here, because of the some anti-Bethesda bias. Even if it was the best game ever, in all aspects, some folks here will hate it because it was developed by Bethesda Softworks. It also is almost guaranteed to be weaker in storyline than TW2 because that's not its focus. There are a lot of story-lovers on this site and they'll rightly prefer TW2 to Skyrim, which is cool. I've never understood the love for the Gothics, Risen, Arcania, etc., but then again I'm not a story guy.

The bottom line? Skyrim will likely sell more copies worldwide than any other rpg title released, though many of these will be long after 2011 is over. Bethesda is guaranteed to stay in business and keep making games, which make THIS fanboy extremely happy. I think, but I'm definitely not positive, that the people making The Witcher 2 are also safe, which again makes me happy. Bethesda needs some competition to keep them honest, and it looks like Bioware is fading fast. CDProject Red should keep Todd and company on their toes.

crpgnut said:

I've never understood the love for the Gothics, Risen, Arcania, etc., but then again I'm not a story guy.

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/cocks head sideways like a confused puppy

Anybody remember Conquest of the New World? In that game IIRC, you could have random landmasses and you'd get exploration rewards for discovering mountain ranges, lakes, rivers, gold mines, etc. I loved that aspect of the game! It was also great for learning real American geography.

I love finding what's over the horizon. I love uncovering the "fog of war". Character building is another fave and perks may go a long way to refreshing the previous TES system. I also freely admit to enjoying the dress-up aspect of my character model. That along with all the loot acquisition has always kept TES as a favorite.

ChienAboyeur said:

Not that bad. RP is about B&C (behaviour and consequences) C&C is a dramatic reduction certain developpers adopted as delivering on C&C is much easier than B&C.

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Except that in Bethesda games there is really no significant consequence for your behaviors. If there was they would just say another Warp of the West happened in the next game.

If by certain developers you mean CD Projekt and (old) Bioware then I will take the "dramatic reduction".

I like to feel like there's a point to me being in a game world besides just killing a bunch of monsters and getting gold. If I want that I can play an 80s NES RPG.

JDR13 said:

Then I would happily accept that bet, as every poll I've seen showed more people preferring Morrowind. You're right about there being no way to really know though, which makes your original statement all the more puzzling to me.

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This is my experience as well from observation on a number of different forums, including Bethesda's.

Bethesda has said the consoles are 90% of their sales currently. I don't remember the exact figures at the time of Morrowind's release, but I am fairly certain it was nowhere near that number. The Xbox release of Morrowind almost seemed like more of an afterthought to me and I saw far less promotion for it than for Oblivion's. Anecdotally, I also came across far less people on the forums claiming to play Morrowind on a console than Oblivion.

It seems to me that a large number of people playing Oblivion were console players who were new to the series. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but they also don't have a frame of reference to compare it to.

DoctorNarrative said:

I am just saying when people act like Oblivion was a failure it's amusingly bias. Same with people who disliked Doom 3 acting like it was a big flop when it sold and reviewed outstandingly well. I'm simply saying frame the discussion better… say "I didn't like Oblivion" rather than "Oblivion was a huge failure."

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Well that's nice and all, except I don't see anyone here saying that.

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I don't either. FWIW, I never said Oblivion was a commercial failure. Obviously it wasn't or we wouldn't even be talking about Skyrim right now. However commercial success != a good game. Admittedly "good" is highly subjective, but in my experience among those who have been playing CRPGs for some time and have played prior games in the series I've personally come across few willing to admit Oblivion is their favorite in the series or one of the better CRPGs they've ever played.

JDR13 said:

Well that's nice and all, except I don't see anyone here saying that.

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Someone called it a failure and that was what my original post was about.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue Morrowind was more successful in any way from an industry standpoint. Higher sales, higher reviews, higher post-release content sales, massive popularity, made the studio a household name for gamers, etc. etc.. I'm not arguing Oblivion is a good game or even a better game, but calling it a failure is absolutely ridiculous which was my original point.

Failure has connotations beyond "I didn't like it." Oblivion was not, in any way, a failure. I don't have a problem with saying it was a crappy game, I have a problem with saying it was a failure.

DoctorNarrative said:

Someone called it a failure and that was what my original post was about.

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No they didn't. You brought up the 'f' word.

I said this which, though utterly lacking the word failure, for some reason seems to have greatly pushed your buttons

Motoki said:

Oblivion was, in the minds of many long time fans of the series, one of the weakest yet

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How many is 'many'? 6? 79? 344? 8,666? Who knows. It's vague and intentionally so, though you can definitely find more than a few people who fit this situation. See the poll here where Morrowind wins best ES game by a landslide for example.

Then there was this:

Drithius said:

Eh, maybe for people who didn't play prior titles in the series… By and large, the majority of people who played Morrowind thought it the superior title.

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(Note that 'people who played Morrowind thinking it is a superior title' is not the same thing as saying Oblivion was a commercial failure)

To which you replied this:

DoctorNarrative said:

Well, I'm not really sure that's true. I don't think we have any kind of hard data on that either. Either way though it's not really what I said… the point is Oblivion is by far the most popular game in the series and by far the best selling, so when core RPG enthusiasts try to act like it was a failure of some kind it makes me chuckle.

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Of the bolded parts the first claim is conjecture and hinges on one's definition of 'popular'. Does popular mean just strictly sales numbers or does it mean memorable and well loved? It's a bit of a matter of opinion I think.

The second claim, however, can be said to be fact and once again NO ONE IS DISPUTING THE FACT THAT IT SOLD MORE COPIES. You seem to not be grasping this.

See also this reply to you:

DeepO said:

Not so fast.
Second, when "RPG enthusiasts try to act like it was a failure of some kind", the "some kind" part is crucial - few people deny Oblivion was a financial success, but a lot more think it was a creative failure.

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You further went on to say

DoctorNarrative said:

YOU might not like it. I didn't really like it either. But it is by far the biggest and best TES game according to the vast majority of fans.

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What does biggest mean? Takes up the most HD space? Then yes it's the biggest. In terms of landmass it's probably the smallest and doesn't come close to Daggerfall. In terms of playing hours? I'd argue it's not the biggest there either. Biggest in terms of sales? Well yes, but, well do I need to get a big lighted neon sign to reiterate to you that no one is disputing that?

To say it is the best according to the vast majority of fans is vague and subjective. If by fans you mean anyone who has ever bought an ES game, including the apparent majority who bought Oblivion on the XBox, I would argue you can't necessarily say all sales = a "fan". I would also argue the majority of Oblivion purchasers bought it on the Xbox and have probably never played an ES game in the past thus by default it is the best game in the series because they have no frame of reference to compare it to.