Dominion 3 The Awakening

JDR13 said:

It's on sale at GamersGate until tomorrow at 75% off ($7.49).

http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-DOM3A/dominions-3-the-awakening

Click to expand...

Nice price! But I want a printed manual for a game of this complexity. There's no way I am printing 300 pages myself.

Thrasher said:

Nice price! But I want a printed manual for a game of this complexity. There's no way I am printing 300 pages myself.

Click to expand...

You plan make competitions? I wonder why you "need" read the whole manual to play the game. Did you really read the whole Civilization manual before playing it? Of the whole Fallout manual before playing it?

I'm at my second game, second race/dominion/map (could have tried the first map with other race), sure first steps are a bit laborious and require check more carefully more battles, check in details the various units, experiment more, and so on. But it's really playable and fun without to have read the dam manual.

Ihaterpg said:

Did you really read the whole Civilization manual before playing it? Of the whole Fallout manual before playing it?.

Click to expand...

Yes. But it was even less useful than it appears it would be for this game.

Ihaterpg said:

But it's really playable and fun without to have read the dam manual.

Click to expand...

I don't like trial and error as much as careful tactics and strategy and builds, knowing the rules ahead of time. Markedly old school from my days of wargaming using boxed sets. BTW, many times the rule set was incomplete so we had to add/clarify rules. With computers, there is no need for that. But, the rules are very often poorly documented, described. Hate that shit. To each his own. I'd rather not thrash about.

After reading more user reviews, I decided to buy it.

It's been a long time since I've played a deep TB strategy game, and this game seems to be highly regarded by most of the people who have played it. (Average rating of 4.6 stars on a 5 star scale from 148 users on GamersGate). Not sure when I'll have the time to actually try playing it though.

Thrasher said:

…
I don't like trial and error as much as careful tactics and strategy and builds, knowing the rules ahead of time…

Click to expand...

Then you didn't played King's Bounty The Legend? If you played only games with everything in the manual, did you even played a single one quite tactical or strategical?

Well anyway if you was really interested by strategy games, a lack of manual wouldn't stop you, probably not a game for you anyway.

EDIT: Moreover this thing or planing everything ahead seems like you never played a really deep tactical/strategy game. Play chess and go plan ahead, there's a long phase ahead of learning including though your errors. It's constant learning even with mathematically precise rule.

Uh no, just no. You don't understand.

Thrasher said:

Uh no, just no. You don't understand.

Click to expand...

Perhaps, I'd be curious to know what strategy/tactical computer games satisfied your requirements. For example, King's Bounty The Legend doesn't match, no Civilization match, many homm don't match (those I played), ha well anyway it's since decades that no game provide detailed paper manual, perhaps you don't buy any strategy game since decades.

I don't know what your imagination build around this game and its manual but it seems at least partially wrong:

• Overall, the manual could has many parts that worth reading but I made various check in it, and quoted many missing information, wrong information, many strategy spoilers and probably many are mildly false.
• The core of the game is the combats, and the manual provide some technical details but is very far to provide a real description of them.
• Also you seem imagine a sort of ultimate strategy game but I don't have this feeling at all about this game, more choices races/dominion setup is one thing, strategy depth is another thing.

But the point is probably that no matter the manual exactitude and precision, you want it on paper for such type of game, weird from my point of view because such game has always very imprecise manual not reflecting the real game, and as I already mentioned no game provide a detailed paper manual since a long time, but ok that's your choice.

I don't have the time nor desire to explain why your examples are not applicable. Look at alpha centauri, age of wonders, or even master of Orion for good examples..

Thrasher said:

I don't have the time nor desire to explain why your examples are not applicable. Look at alpha centauri, age of wonders, or even master of Orion for good examples..

Click to expand...

Alpha Centauri 1999, Master of Orion 1993, Age of Wonders 1999, ok that confirm what I was saying, since more than a decade you won't get a full detailed and precise manual on paper, for any computer strategy game since more than a decade.

I didn't played a single one, well tried Master of Orion recently and got bored by its cold approach so I can't say I have played it yet, just a first attempt. Age of Wonders is appealing me and in my list since you mentioned it in this thread, and Alpha Centauri was a failed Civilization for my believing.

EDIT:
From what I read of Master of Orion, I doubt Dominion 3 is at same strategy level in single player and I wouldn't advise Dom 3 for multiplayer other than with close friends because it has a ton of exploits.

It's interesting to know that Master of Orion manual is important and detailed, it's so rare, next time I'll try it, I'll give a check to its manual first.

Alpha Centauri is actually better than civilization according to many. For myself, Civilization sounds a lot more boring to me. Don't quote me on MoO manual, but AoW and AC, definitely. In general, recent game manuals do suck pretty bad, but DoM isn't new by a long shot.

Yes Dom 3 is old stuff, still last update release was at end of 2012 and fixes are preparing a new version probably for 2013 and it's another generation than any you quoted. When it's been released it was probably the only computer strategy game since multiple years that was released with a big detailed paper manual.

It's a very bizarre reason to not buy a game when since more than two decades there's no game matching that criteria. Perhaps that explain why all your references only come from the 90's.

I'm not in charge in selling the game so I don't care, but your reason to not buy the game was really intriguing. But fine, your choice.

Otherwise I'll give a look to Alpha Centauri but in fact I think I have the box (Mac) and had tried it a little, so if I remember well it was a disappointment for me. For me Civilization is Civilization 1, since then it didn't work very well until Civilization IV a bit, and Civ4 WW2 mods a lot but they was also changing quite a lot the civ approach. For the V I'm not sure, I need play it more, I like the inability to stack despite it created some unsolved problems and the provinces stuff seems an interesting idea, but it didn't glued me. Still the first impression was better than I expected.

I don't play many modern strategy games cause most of them are shit (at least from what I've read) and poorly documented. King's bounty is an exception. At least I can save before each battle and retry other tactics. Don't mind that on a local scale. Do mind it on grand strategy level where it can turns upon turns to determine if you've fucked up because the rules and UI are so badly documented. King's Bounty isn't even close to being as poorly understandable as the stuff you've written for DoM 3.

I guess X3: Terran Conflict is more of a sim than a strategy game. It was a major research project just to figure out everything. Not really in the mood for that right now. A clear rulebook, I am.

Comparing King's Bounty to Dominions 3 is like comparing checkers to Chess. An 8 year-old could play King's Bounty without looking at the manual.

Dominions 3 is very well documented for how complex it is, but I can already see that it has a significant learning curve.

Yep, said better than me.

Ha ha King's Bounty The Legend with time back strategies and many more subtleties I'd love see your kid play it. You are very funny jdr.

Sure on normal mode, taking all your time for a crap score, it's easy. Really be efficient on hardest difficulty ie really play it well and understand the possibilities and apply them is another matter.

You haven't even play Dominion 3 and compare to another game? Ha ha jdr you are the best.

Dominion 3 AI seems interesting in single player but for now, second game, about 80/150 hours in it, at normal difficulty it's not a challenge, overall the AI has an interesting play and there's a air attempt of multiple personalities but not for winning the game. By giving rules advantage to the AI it could be more challenging I'll see. It's fun anyway, really a great game.

And about the manual, don't laud it before to have really check it, few checks allowed me noticed many wrong to misguiding information. It probably haven't been updated since a long time unlike the game, and that can only be worse for a paper version.

And about the position that only old games are good and smart, I won't even start the debate.

But I came here because I wanted highlight that there's a very good sale at Gog for Age of Wonders mentioned multiple time in this thread.

The sale is less amazing for AoW2 and Shadow Magic but there's a sale too and they are less old (2002/2003) that could explain the price difference, well still quite old and they seemed less significant from the few I read.

Ihaterpg said:

Ha ha King's Bounty The Legend with time back strategies and many more subtleties I'd love see your kid play it. You are very funny jdr.

Sure on normal mode, taking all your time for a crap score, it's easy. Really be efficient on hardest difficulty ie really play it well and understand the possibilities and apply them is another matter.

You haven't even play Dominion 3 and compare to another game? Ha ha jdr you are the best.

Click to expand...

I purchased and installed Dom3 two days ago. I haven't been able to spend much time with it yet, but I've played enough to see that it's *far* more complex than something like King's Bounty.

In fact it's a large part of oldies in GOG catalog that are on sale, so many games more or less in a large genre that includes Dominion 3.

A good opportunity to get them cheap to have them at a handy place from where you can reinstall them quickly… until Gog vanish… if this ever happen.

So there's bellow 3$ each:

• Age of Wonders
• Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri which includes the expansion Alien Crossfire.
• Master of Orion pack with 1&2
• Master of Magic

But also a bit less cheap, bellow 5$ each:

• Age of Wonders 2
• Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
• Master of Orion 3
• Heroes of Might & Magic 3 complete, with expansions: Armageddon's Blade and The Shadow of Death

If I forgot any worthing the mention (and in that rough genre, it's in fact very different games for those I know), don't hesitate to pinpoint it, there's also Eador: Genesis but without osx wrapper I'll delay it and anyway I'm a bit suspicious about it. And even more about the anti campaign against the 3D port, Eador Masters of the Broken World. The result of this negative mood is to discourage me try any.

Anyway that GOG sale is very cool and at right time during Dom3 passion time, I'll pick AoW and SMAC.

About SMAC, I feel from Gog users reviews that it's only the theme that makes it special, not the gameplay that seems like the 2 and in my opinion the less good with the 3 and not including the V not really played yet.

Those users reviews succeed grab my curiosity about the supposed depth and interest of the SF in the game (for the gameplay it seems just a clone of civ 2, not my favorite civ series). I read so many excellent SF books (mainly 50's to 80's) that it makes me difficult about SF in movies and games, I often find their SF a bit pale, but ok that's intriguing.

I think the history is that Civ ? was made after AC and had a lot of its gameplay based on AC. Could have been the other order though... I like the SF factions and some their unique abilities regarding planet. Anyway, one day I will try a Civ...

I played a bit SMAC (AoW too but I'll comment another day or in another post).

First steps in SMAC are rude because of ugly colors and not very clear graphics, it is outdated for its time (1999). The series of civ is I, I Mac redo among many other redo, II, Call To Power, SMAC, Call to Power II, III, IV, Colonization (engine of IV), Revolution (engine of IV), V.

My preference would be : IV, I Mac redo, II & III, Colonization. Still need play (or more) SMAC, Call To Power 1&2, Revolution and V.

I suspect the V could become my favorite because of its approach more oriented to light wargame and the design efforts to add spice and more options in first phases through multiple elements added. But there's flaws I feel coming from few hours played:

• Too complex management to be fun and not enough detailed to build a sim pleasure, and it's stuff to let the AI manage for you.
• The movements seems be a failure of the game. First that there's no preview of movements is an awful design error, seems like newbies that designed and tested the game. The idea of no stack and more wargame approach is good but doesn't work with the maps types and movements as small than 1 to 3, but most often just 1 or 2. They should use a system allowing stack for movements but limiting a lot stack attacks, or even allow only one element of the stack to attack.
• The lack of clarity of the map and stuff on it is a rather awful element. It's designed to be very nice and cute but lost the focus on clarity. So as soon as you zoom out a bit it becomes rather pointless.

From the few I played, SMAC is definitely a transposition of Civ. But default setup is making it more different, for example you don't choose a research topic but only one or multiple research domain, but a setup allows choose and make it more civ like. First steps seems put a focus on management including micromanagement but you have auto setup not by default. Instead of telling a civilization and historical elements it seems try build a story, it seems very spread but still that's different, but clearly it works only from the campaign point of view, in my opinion scenario and campaign aren't the core of the civ series.

From the point of view of scenario, then among what I played it's the WW2 mods of Civ4 that are the best achievement. But they change quite a lot the spirit of the game, and when you dig them, they show their weaknesses by trying make fit in an engine an approach not fully adapted to this engine. I wouldn't be surprised if for the V more wargame oriented they have planned a pure ww2 extension.

The IV in fact failed a bit because it becomes pale in comparison with some of its best scenario. Moreover some scenario allow choose among multiple opponents this increasing their replay value. But I played the IV multiple time before any scenario, and they definitely solved many problems with the IV. But once you start the best scenario it's hard to come back to civ 4 core, that's its paradoxical weakness.

EDIT:
Added in list of civ series, Call To Power 1&2, Civ 1 Mac redo (among many redo of the 1).

I changed the post to add the precision about Civ 1 to specify Civ 1 Mac Redo. It's weird I couldn't find a single snapshot on the net, and I have the box with floppies but the box is the DOS packaging.

Anyway after PC DOS version of Civ1 they made many updates of the game for different platforms. For the Mac they totally changed the interface to make it with multiple windows and with crispy graphics and a larger map. They redo all graphics because they had to make a Black&White version. But the result is crispy graphics and I think they redo also the color versions to have a match between B&W and colors. For the interface it's perhaps a bit like later Windows Civ2 version, but a lot more crispy. It's not a pure detail, because larger map and better clarity are clear influences on the the gameplay of such game.