The Wall Street Occupation

Ubereil said:
Remember how they want absolutely nothing to do with the police? It's not that they don't want policing, they just don't want the police to do the policing, because they don't think the police is doing what it's supposed to.
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Protecting criminals isn't going to make that any better.

Given the track record of the American police I understand them. Not sure who else can deal with it better, though.
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Overall most US police do a reasonable good job, and much better than the vast majority of the world. When there is abuse though, we see it 24/7 on the news and it makes it look a lot worse than it is.

Like I said, the likelihood that punishing him will stop him is low. The likelihood that he will stop is probably much higher with councelling.
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If he is in jail, at least until he gets out, he will not be raping anyone (anyone not in prison at least). Again, I ask for even ONE legitimate phycologist that believes rapists can be reformed with counseling, Hell, I'll settle for a legitimate study.

Besides, there's as much rape in jails as outside of them, if not more. So that jail stops rape is… well, it's false. The only difference is that we like those rape victims less.
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If someone is going to be raped, I'd much rather it be a prisoner than an innocent person.


Got any proof it isn't?
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Proofing a negative is impossible. You made the assertion, it is up to you to proof it works. I can conclusively prove that any person in prison for rape will not be raping anyone outside of prison during their stay though.

If what I say about the cause of rape is true, then getting rapists to understand that a mini-skirt doesn't mean you're entitled to sex is going to be more effective than prison. Because prison isn't going to get them to awknowledge that (if anything prison will only strengthen that belief).
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You completely misunderstand the rapist mind. A rapist may use the dress of a person to justify it to themselves, but that isn't the underlying cause of the desire to commit rape.

(And I've seen evidence that councelling works well when it comes to domestic violence. So why wouldn't it work with rapists? I doubt there's all that much difference in mentality between the two.)
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I'd be interested to see that, but my initial guess would be because the nature of the crime is significantly different.
 
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Thrasher said:
If the police start using violence, it will escalate on both sides. I won't be surprised if it won't stop until someone is killed. Even then, it may take some serious guillotine action on fat Wall Street brokers, CEOs, and corporations before it simmers down.
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You really can't admit that the people that attacked Whole Foods were out of line, can you?
 
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There are tons of anecdotal cases that mean nothing in the small, except to show that violence bred by police, is causing an up tic in violence in the large. DO I approve of violence? No. But since police and government forces are hurting people who have a constitutional right to demonstrate, and the establishment fails to protect that right and instead fights it with violence, people have a right to defend themselves.

Right now it's the big picture that matters, rather than these little anecdotes that mean nothing without the larger context.
 
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blatantninja said:
Protecting criminals isn't going to make that any better.
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I fail to see how they're protecting criminals. Not acting for their imprisonment isn't the same as acting against their imprisonment, after all.

blatantninja said:
Overall most US police do a reasonable good job, and much better than the vast majority of the world. When there is abuse though, we see it 24/7 on the news and it makes it look a lot worse than it is.
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I doubt doing better work than the police of Somalia is something American police departments brag about.

blatantninja said:
If he is in jail, at least until he gets out, he will not be raping anyone (anyone not in prison at least). Again, I ask for even ONE legitimate phycologist that believes rapists can be reformed with counseling, Hell, I'll settle for a legitimate study.[/url]

Here's a study on therapy of men found guilty of domestic violence (most of it is in Sweden, but it does at least have an English abstract). Modest results, but better results than other kinds of intervention, was its conclusion. With better understanding of the causes the councelling is bound to get better, to that.

And, like I said, domestic violence and rape aren't all that different.

blatantninja said:
If someone is going to be raped, I'd much rather it be a prisoner than an innocent person.
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Once in jail they are to be considered as innocent as anyone. If nothing else but to ensure they actually get something out of getting out of their life of crime.

blatantninja said:
Proofing a negative is impossible. You made the assertion, it is up to you to proof it works.
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I said councelling is more effective than prison. You said I'm wrong, which means you claim prison is at least as effective as councelling. If I ought to be able to prove councelling is more effective than prison, you ought to be able to prove prison is more effective than councelling.

(Besides that, the article I linked above. And I'd like to point out that I think that while they're in therapy we should take precations to ensure they can't rape anyone.)

blatantninja said:
You completely misunderstand the rapist mind. A rapist may use the dress of a person to justify it to themselves, but that isn't the underlying cause of the desire to commit rape.
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The dress explanation was a placeholde for "why rapists thinks raping is ok", not an attempt to give an actual explanation. The gist of what I was saying was that if we get them to talk to a councellor who questions this belief persistently it's going to be more effective than just having them sit in a cell all day long.

blatantninja said:
I'd be interested to see that, but my initial guess would be because the nature of the crime is significantly different.
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What's the significant difference?

Übereil
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Thrasher said:
The pot calling the kettle black again are we DTE? Seems you're OK throwing around lies and strawmen about others, but love to accuse others of lying, when it's not even true? How typical.
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Prove I said that with quotes or admit you're a liar. Your choice, champ.
 
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Think of the side effects of rape!!
 
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Corwin said:
Think of the side effects of rape!!
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Think of the other ways to prevent that side effect. To go with another alternative that's sure to prevent someone from rape, there's the death penalty. But why use that when we can achieve the same result with castration? Likewise, why use castration if we can achieve the same result without castrating?

Übereil
 
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Haven't a clue. Something about cops and liars or something. It's hard to follow through all the name calling, but they seem to be enjoying themselves.
 
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JDR13 said:
How did a thread about Wall Street turn into a debate about rape and castration?
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The occupy protesters promotes not reporting rapes to the police, instead vouching for councelling the rapists. Out of that came a discussion on the best way to prevent rapists from committing further rapes.

Suprizingly few steps, when you think of it.

Übereil
 
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Ubereil said:
I fail to see how they're protecting criminals. Not acting for their imprisonment isn't the same as acting against their imprisonment, after all.
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Actively discouraging involving the police, which is what they are doing even if they say it ok to involve with rape cases, IS acting against their imprisonment.


I doubt doing better work than the police of Somalia is something American police departments brag about.
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They also do better work than a lot of Western countries. Read up on the case of Amanda Knox. As bad as US Police departments may be, the vast majority of the mistakes in that investigation never would have occurred in the US.

blatantninja said:
If he is in jail, at least until he gets out, he will not be raping anyone (anyone not in prison at least). Again, I ask for even ONE legitimate phycologist that believes rapists can be reformed with counseling, Hell, I'll settle for a legitimate study.[/url]

And, like I said, domestic violence and rape aren't all that different.
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They share similarities, but I think there are significant differences in the motivations, at least for rapes that occur against strangers.


Once in jail they are to be considered as innocent as anyone. If nothing else but to ensure they actually get something out of getting out of their life of crime.
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While I do not advocate the abuse of prisoners (either by prison staff or other inmates), there is a big difference between a person that is a convicted criminal and person walking down the street.

I said councelling is more effective than prison. You said I'm wrong, which means you claim prison is at least as effective as councelling. If I ought to be able to prove councelling is more effective than prison, you ought to be able to prove prison is more effective than councelling.
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I already did. Any person in prison won't be raping anyone outside of prison during their stay. I never said it would permanently fix the problem, it won't. And no evidence exists that counseling will either.

(Besides that, the article I linked above. And I'd like to point out that I think that while they're in therapy we should take precations to ensure they can't rape anyone.)
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How are you going to do that without putting them in prison? I'm not against trying counseling while they are locked up BTW.

The dress explanation was a placeholde for "why rapists thinks raping is ok", not an attempt to give an actual explanation. The gist of what I was saying was that if we get them to talk to a councellor who questions this belief persistently it's going to be more effective than just having them sit in a cell all day long.
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Most rapists don't rape because they think the person is asking for it. It's not like they were walking down the street minding their own business and saw a person dressed scantily and thought 'Wow, that person wants me to rape her!'

What's the significant difference?
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Domestic abuse is often the result of abuse previously received by the abuser, from what I understand. Additionally, it stems from a desire to control a specific person. Rape generally is not about a specific person. Now to be clear, I'm talking about violent rape of at least relative strangers, not so-called 'date rape' that occurs between people that are familiar with each other.
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Ubereil said:
The occupy protesters promotes not reporting rapes to the police, instead vouching for councelling the rapists. Out of that came a discussion on the best way to prevent rapists from committing further rapes.

Suprizingly few steps, when you think of it.

Übereil
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"Counselling" as in a mafia type of "counselling"? Like a proper beat down followed by grabbing his wallet, writing down his address and telling him if he comes around again some "friends" will come pay him a visit. Seems like that type of "counselling" might work. :)
 
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Ubereil said:
Think of the other ways to prevent that side effect. To go with another alternative that's sure to prevent someone from rape, there's the death penalty. But why use that when we can achieve the same result with castration? Likewise, why use castration if we can achieve the same result without castrating?

Übereil
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Castration is pretty much the only thing that HAS been proven to work consistently. That said, I think it should be reserved for repeat offenders. If someone is convicted of multiple rapes at different timer intervals to different victims, there's pretty much no doubt that a person was unfairly convicted. A single rape charge, though lessened with DNA testing, is much more ripe for being overturned.
 
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skavenhorde said:
"Counselling" as in a mafia type of "counselling"? Like a proper beat down followed by grabbing his wallet, writing down his address and telling him if he comes around again some "friends" will come pay him a visit. Seems like that type of "counselling" might work. :)
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Well if that was what he meant, I think I could agree with that!
 
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skavenhorde said:
"Counselling" as in a mafia type of "counselling"? Like a proper beat down followed by grabbing his wallet, writing down his address and telling him if he comes around again some "friends" will come pay him a visit. Seems like that type of "counselling" might work. :)
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And the Grinch's black heart swelled 3 times that day... Bakery fresh donuts, ice cold milk, and frontier justice--it's a good good morning in dte land! There's hope for you yet, skav. ;)
 
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