Please Dems, not Hillary!

Prime Junta said:
The interesting feature about growth in the "fat" post-WW2 years is that it was driven by two things: economies of scale and middle class that was getting bigger and richer -- and was therefore able to consume what the economies of scale were producing. You can't have that growth model in a highly inegalitarian society -- there won't be enough people with discretionary spending power that it makes sense to produce a hundred million Chevrolets.
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Agreed, and I wholly support incentives that help grow the middle class.

Health insurance and pensions -- and, especially, steady and predictable wage growth -- were significant factors, since they made it possible for the middle class to consume. They were an essential part of the system, and with the unions, they were represented in the negotiations that set the wages, pensions, and health plans.
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I disagree with the pensions aspect. Mainly because neither before or since the advent of pensions have Americans shown significant desire to save money towards retirement. The only thing pensions (and social security) really did was decrease the likelihood that for a few years during your prime income earning years that your parents would be living with and supported by you.

I agree that health insurance helped as well. A healthy work force is a good thing. One of the problems though is that our health system has evolved to include far more than basic healthcare, which has the two fold effect of reducing the number of people that can afford healthcare and also becoming a drag on productivity, rather than a boon to it.
 
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blatantninja said:
I agree that health insurance helped as well. A healthy work force is a good thing. One of the problems though is that our health system has evolved to include far more than basic healthcare, which has the two fold effect of reducing the number of people that can afford healthcare and also becoming a drag on productivity, rather than a boon to it.
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There's also a huge amount of systemic waste in the way it's currently organized: insurance companies have enormous incentives not to pay, which means that they expend a great deal of effort in finding reasons to avoid paying. A single-payer system would cut out this layer of waste at a stroke.
 
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blatantninja said:
I'm more than willing to pay taxes to support our education system, to reduce crime, etc., but I have no desire to spend my hard earned money simply to pay for the lifestyle of someone else, just because they made less than me.
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A friend of mine (who's politically about as far to the right as you get in my neck of the woods) once commented that some people are just hopeless cases, so we might as well give them an XBox, sausages, and beer, so they won't go stick up a liquor store to get them.

Put another way, a safety net that provides the bare necessities, no questions asked, doesn't really cost that much. Someone who isn't willing to do any work to get anything beyond that probably wouldn't be a very productive citizen even without it.
 
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Prime Junta said:
There's also a huge amount of systemic waste in the way it's currently organized: insurance companies have enormous incentives not to pay, which means that they expend a great deal of effort in finding reasons to avoid paying. A single-payer system would cut out this layer of waste at a stroke.
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And introduce other problems. Believe me when I say I am no fan of the insurance industry, but medicare/medicaid wastes huge amounts of money as well. Plus, if you suddenly increased the pool of insured to cover all residents, we would have a colossal problem of unacceptably long wait lines and such. The system needs fixing, but it will have to be gradual to make it work.
 
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Prime Junta said:
A friend of mine (who's politically about as far to the right as you get in my neck of the woods) once commented that some people are just hopeless cases, so we might as well give them an XBox, sausages, and beer, so they won't go stick up a liquor store to get them.

Put another way, a safety net that provides the bare necessities, no questions asked, doesn't really cost that much. Someone who isn't willing to do any work to get anything beyond that probably wouldn't be a very productive citizen even without it.
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Agreed. Of course, I think these people should be drafted into the army myself!
 
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blatantninja said:
Agreed. Of course, I think these people should be drafted into the army myself!
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I've been in the army with some of these people, and believe me the army is better off without them. I could tell you a few stories...
 
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blatantninja said:
And introduce other problems. Believe me when I say I am no fan of the insurance industry, but medicare/medicaid wastes huge amounts of money as well. Plus, if you suddenly increased the pool of insured to cover all residents, we would have a colossal problem of unacceptably long wait lines and such. The system needs fixing, but it will have to be gradual to make it work.
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Gradual is the key word here; there's clearly no way it can be fixed at a stroke.

By the way, if the second part of your prediction is true, it implies that Americans are not getting adequate health care under the current system -- if they were, the lines wouldn't lengthen.
 
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Prime Junta said:
I've been in the army with some of these people, and believe me the army is better off without them. I could tell you a few stories...
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Ever heard the term Cannon Fodder? :D
 
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Prime Junta said:
Gradual is the key word here; there's clearly no way it can be fixed at a stroke.

By the way, if the second part of your prediction is true, it implies that Americans are not getting adequate health care under the current system -- if they were, the lines wouldn't lengthen.
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The average American is getting excellent healthcare (though the payments might be a bit stressful!). However, approximately 1 in 7 Americans are not in the system, though the number that have no means of coverage is actually 1 in 20 (which I think is an acceptable rate). If you suddenly had those 1 in 7 in the system, it would overload it and you would see the waits you see in Canada, the UK, etc.
 
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UK is an exception and not a rule among EU countries. Helthcare here was neglected here for years and years by both Conservatives and Labour governments. Tonly Blair started reform program but it will take a long while to get it fixed!
 
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Not to derail the thread away from all these factors but I'd just like to note that as I write, Clinton's won Ohio and simultaneously accused Obama of rigging the Texas caucus. (!)

I had a very brief moment where I actually felt empathy for this woman last week, but I have had my head cleared by this return to normalcy. I heard a soundbyte from Rush Limbaugh urging all the Republicans in Texas(open primary)to go out and vote for Hillary so Obama would be "so bloodied politically" that McCain would win the election. And its true--she'll tear him to ribbons and claw her way over his bleeding body if she can...doesn't matter that she's damaging her party's chance of winning, or how many lies she has to tell to do it.

Best stop now--I detect a certain emotional tone pushing this into the rant category. >:O:brood::pout::furious:

blatantninja wrote:
The average American is getting excellent healthcare
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Except in Las Vegas. ;)
 
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magerette said:
Not to derail the thread away from all these factors but I'd just like to note that as I write, Clinton's won Ohio and simultaneously accused Obama of rigging the Texas caucus. (!)
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Hee hee, this looks like it's going to get exciting.

/me grabs some popcorn and puts on a song that's appropriate for this on so many levels, right from the name of the band...
 
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Maybe, but then again maybe not -- the Republicans won't go into full attack mode until the candidate is clear. If the Democrats manage to keep the fight a fairly clean one, it might work out fine.
 
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Ugh. No wonder most everyone in the world hates politicians. These folks are shameless and no matter how "pie in the sky" they talk, it's still comes down to "me, me, me". Stoopid Texans, I was hoping we would come to our senses and give Obama a significant win so Ms. 3 AM would go away.

Oh, and rant on, I hate "undecided" and "last minute" voters. I'm sorry, but these are usually the morons that let the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the 3 AM phone call ads influence them. I'm sure some of you will come up for reasons why someone might be undecided, but in my mind they seem ignorant and under informed if they can't decide until the last minute.
 
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I can see in-party undecideds ... I mean the two of them have been much busier touting '35 years of experience' and 'change is in the air' than actually talking policy.

But even final election undecideds I can understand - because you are not just electing the person, you are getting all of the baggage that comes along with them ... it is much like marrying someone without considering that their family will play a large role in your new life together. So when you elect a president you get the 'mother-in-law effect' ;)
 
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txa1265 said:
But even final election undecideds I can understand - because you are not just electing the person, you are getting all of the baggage that comes along with them
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But that's why I'm so anti-Hillary, the "baggage" that she brings along. The Democratic candidates Senatorial records and their campaign issues are so close, about all you have to decide about them is their baggage. Hillary carries way too much for my tastes, which is why I'm willing to give the relatively unknown Obama the nod. If you are waiting for the last moment to weigh the campaigns stands on issues, then you don't know politics at all. The candidates are not going to uphold their campaign issues religiously..."no new taxes" anyone?
 
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But "undecided" is the place to be. Today, Obama offers free beer. Tomorrow, Hillary offers free beer by the keg. After that, Obama counters with pretzels. By the time the election rolls around, voters will be getting passes to a Beverly Hills soire hosted by the Baldwin brothers. You've got to hold out for the best deal. ;)
 
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That's exactly where this is heading. Exactly. That's how Democrats get elected to National Office. Just go back and listen to the speeches Al Gore gave in the last three weeks of his campaign. Everywhere he went he promised to spend millions on issues that concerned that particular audience. The closer to the election, the bigger the prizes.
 
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