BG vs BG:EE

Hello,

I was contemplating starting a playthrough of BG1. In the past, I've only gotten halfway -- up to Cloakwood forest I think it was -- but several years have passed and continuing that save proves hard. I have no clue of what is going, nor do I remember what I was doing.

So, I want to start from scratch. I have picked up the EE version during a Steam sale, so I am wondering now... Do I play the original, or the EE?

Any thoughts, suggestions? Do the EE additions dilute the original? And how bug-free is the EE?
Thanks in advance!

wiretripped said:

Hello,So, I want to start from scratch. I have picked up the EE version during a Steam sale, so I am wondering now… Do I play the original, or the EE?

Any thoughts, suggestions? Do the EE additions dilute the original?

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Continue that savegame, you don't want to inflict this game on yourself all over. No, EE doesn't dilute the game, everything works as expected; that is, bows over everything and kiting is your friend.

If you already own the EE and want to start over anyway, there is no reason not to play the EE.

The EE imho doesn't dilute the game. The changes aren't dramatic: 3 new possible companions, enhanced GUI and some other minor improvements. The "New Adventure Black Pits" is a standalone thing that mustn't be played for the story to progress.

I haven't recognized major bugs apart from the journal entries being messed up somehow. But that was immediately after release. I think it's patched now.

Definitely play the EE version if you have to choose, it only enhances the game overall IMO.

Sacred_Path said:

Continue that savegame, you don't want to inflict this game on yourself all over. No, EE doesn't dilute the game, everything works as expected; that is, bows over everything and kiting is your friend.

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I can only assume that was a lame attempt at trolling.

JDR13 said:

I can only assume that was a lame attempt at trolling.

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I can only assume you're wearing some deeply rose colored glasses when you're looking at BG.

Sacred_Path said:

I can only assume you're wearing some deeply rose colored glasses when you're looking at BG.

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Yep, me and the vast majority who consider it a classic.

Run along now...

JDR13 said:

Yep, me and the vast majority who consider it a classic.

Run along now…

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If by classic you mean 'unmarred by age', I doubt that you'll find many who'd chime in there.

The passing of time has only made most of us appreciate games like BG and the gold box tactical rpg's even more. Games, for the most part, are not getting better these days....they tend to be smaller and way dumbed down compared to some older games. I'll take the classics anyday.


-Carn

Sacred_Path said:

If by classic you mean 'unmarred by age', I doubt that you'll find many who'd chime in there.

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Therefore you would also say that there are no films or recorded music or artworks which are 'classic' since their physical nature disallows them from being 'unmarred by age' ...

So yeah whatever, move along troll.

txa1265 said:

Therefore you would also say that there are no films or recorded music or artworks which are 'classic' since their physical nature disallows them from being 'unmarred by age' …

So yeah whatever, move along troll.

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lol @ calling someone a troll because they don't share your nostalgia/ hype

The point is exactly that, is BG a classic because it's timeless (like some music, movies, and possibly games)? No, not by a long shot. It has too many flaws for that. Is BG a classic according to the standards of its time? Probably, but then that's purely academical value. It's not something you want to do for, like, fun.

I raised two points about BG and the EE that no one has refuted, and that's that 90% of the game consists of you firing bows until something drops, and the game is designed in a way to tremendously reward kiting. I've played the EE recently and it's still the same. The OP has already played up to the Cloakwood area so he knows quite a bit about the story, so replaying it for the story is probably not what he wants. Also I'm not talking about modded BG because he has implied that he doesn't want his experience "diluted". So, my advice is to continue the savegame just for the story.

BG is a great game now - just as it always was.

I consider it a timeless classic because of the technology involved - and it has aged extremely well. Just like classic movies, including Alien and Blade Runner.

As for exploiting mechanics to ruin the game for yourself - I wouldn't recommend it. Very few RPGs are immune to exploits of that nature. Once you reach a certain level of gamer maturity - you learn to avoid ruining the enjoyment for yourself by tempering your obsession with efficiency. It's a challenge for people with OCD - but it can be overcome with practice.

Obviously, not everyone in this thread has reached that level of maturity.

That said, I rarely fret about exploiting mechanics. I quite enjoy powergaming and I don't have an issue with being too powerful. I rarely play games expecting perfect balance - but that's because I understand that games are almost impossible to design in such a way as to provide sufficient complexity and ideal balance in one package.

Again, not everyone has reached the level of gamer maturity to realise such a thing.

Sacred_Path said:

I raised two points about BG and the EE that no one has refuted, and that's that 90% of the game consists of you firing bows until something drops, and the game is designed in a way to tremendously reward kiting. I've played the EE recently and it's still the same. The OP has already played up to the Cloakwood area so he knows quite a bit about the story, so replaying it for the story is probably not what he wants. Also I'm not talking about modded BG because he has implied that he doesn't want his experience "diluted". So, my advice is to continue the savegame just for the story.

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I don't play the kite game. Never have and never will so your statement of the game consisting of 90% kiting does not count for me. Hell, perhaps the OP enjoys the kiting? In that logic, everytime I visit Germany, I end up eating bratwursts for lunch. People who enjoy something else for lunch should never visit Germany. See what I did there?

The OP mentioned in his post that he has no idea what is going on, so replaying it might not be a bad idea, considering that he WANTS to replay it......

DArtagnan said:

As for exploiting mechanics to ruin the game for yourself - I wouldn't recommend it. Very few RPGs are immune to exploits of that nature.

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Strawman; kiting is no exploit, certainly not in a game that's tailored for it like BG. Of course you can stand there and duke it out with a tank who will hit an ogre approx. 1 out of ten 10 times with his longsword (if he has exceptional strength), and do the reload game until your fingers bleed because he will "chunk" you in one or two hits, which means game over (for the protagonist) or no ressurrection (for a companion).

I've heard that same argument before from people defending i.e. BG; you don't have to kite. It's just that you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't do it, and that kind of artificial difficulty is for LARPers, not for anyone else. In a game, there's no alternative to gaming the system. Would you call a game a timeless classic even though it's ridiculously easy, because you can play without weapons for increased challenge?

Kiting in BG?

Never even considered it, I would think it would be rather difficult with a party and the poor path finding in the game.

I didn't find BG or BG2 so hard that it would require such tactics. I did have extensive d&d knowledge before playing either though and I could see if you didn't it would be rather ways to gimp your party.

As for the bows I'd have to agree with that. (Patially)Equipping your entire party with ranged weapons would take you quite far with many enemies not even reaching you but even so eventually as you got to the later stages of the game that alone would not work.

Are they classics? I'd say so,they stack up well against games of thier kind even today. Not sure if that's a testament to how good they are or a testament to how little the party based genre has evolved. ( or hasn't really)

Start again with EE.

Make yourself a half-orc fighter(berzerker) with 19str and 19con to lead the party.

sakichop said:

Kiting in BG?

Never even considered it, I would think it would be rather difficult with a party and the poor path finding in the game.

I didn't find BG or BG2 so hard that it would require such tactics. I did have extensive d&d knowledge before playing either though and I could see if you didn't it would be rather ways to gimp your party.

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Your extensive knowledge of D&D doesn't change their hit points, I think. The next best thing to kiting is low level spells as they will hardly ever fail (that's another one of BG's problems). It's also more of an inconvenience though, and I'd say we can claim that the most intuitive succesful strategies that a game allows for are the way it's meant to be played.

This game has all the problems of low level DnD, mechanics wise. Then there's the save reload fest that's pickpocketing. And so on.

Yeah the OP seems to have enjoyed his romp through BG a bit or else he wouldn't want to play again, but my point actually was, you can play BG:EE and still get an experience that's pretty close to players of the original BG.

Sacred_Path said:

Strawman; kiting is no exploit, certainly not in a game that's tailored for it like BG. Of course you can stand there and duke it out with a tank who will hit an ogre approx. 1 out of ten 10 times with his longsword (if he has exceptional strength), and do the reload game until your fingers bleed because he will "chunk" you in one or two hits, which means game over (for the protagonist) or no ressurrection (for a companion).

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Unfortunately, you've provided absolutely no proof of your claim that the developers "tailored" the game to be one of kiting with bows. It makes absolutely no sense at all that they would, so your point is both irrational and weak.

If you think kiting is the only way to play the game, then you're being ignorant of the options available. If you think it's the only way to be efficient in the game, then you're being ignorant of the options available.

It's common sense that the developers did what they could to adapt the PnP rules of AD&D 2nd Edition given the time and resources available.

I think they did a fine job - even if the game has plenty of weaknesses.

Playing the game exclusively with ranged characters, kiting enemies across the map is clearly not what they intended as THE way to play - as they implemented a lot of classes that can't use bows - and they implemented a lot of NPCs meant to join your party that can't use bows.

Essentially, you discovered that bows are efficient at kiting enemies - and you've stared yourself blind. You've obviously overlooked several powergaming avenues - and it takes but a few minutes of googling to discover other ways to "break" the game.

If that's your thing - so be it. But trying to tell people your way is the only way is not only ignorant - it's selfish and arrogant.

Not a very impressive position - but that's on you.

I've heard that same argument before from people defending i.e. BG; you don't have to kite. It's just that you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't do it, and that kind of artificial difficulty is for LARPers, not for anyone else. In a game, there's no alternative to gaming the system. Would you call a game a timeless classic even though it's ridiculously easy, because you can play without weapons for increased challenge?

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Why don't you give us all some examples of old RPGs that can't be exploited in a similar way.

I'm really curious to hear about some of your favorite games - and please give us some titles of games you consider classic RPGs.

I'm sure I'm not the only one curious to hear about these games that you can't "break".

Sacred_Path said:

The OP has already played up to the Cloakwood area so he knows quite a bit about the story, so replaying it for the story is probably not what he wants. Also I'm not talking about modded BG because he has implied that he doesn't want his experience "diluted". So, my advice is to continue the savegame just for the story.

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Yeah, well, the story is kind of the problem. I remember the main storyline somewhat -- my memory was never very good -- but I just have no idea of what is going on at the moment, or what quest I was on, or what I am supposed to be doing, or...
I remember having fun with the game before I got bored with, or got distracted with real life, so I figured I might as well start from scratch.

Branq said:

Hell, perhaps the OP enjoys the kiting? In that logic, everytime I visit Germany, I end up eating bratwursts for lunch. People who enjoy something else for lunch should never visit Germany. See what I did there?

The OP mentioned in his post that he has no idea what is going on, so replaying it might not be a bad idea, considering that he WANTS to replay it……

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Kiting? No, thanks. I'm in it for the roleplay and the story. I usually don't powergame, though I am very much a completionist.

But anyway, it seems the majority leans toward the EE...

DArtagnan said:

Unfortunately, you've provided absolutely no proof of your claim that the developers "tailored" the game to be one of kiting with bows. It makes absolutely no sense at all that they would, so your point is both irrational and weak.

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I provided an example of a specific enemy and a specific character with a specific weapon and why that fails (although it's the standard approach in RPGs) and why kiting is superior (because it works, and no, not every RPG even allows for kiting even though it has been claimed that these "exploits" are in every game). QQ more.

If you think kiting is the only way to play the game, then you're being ignorant of the options available. If you think it's the only way to be efficient in the game, then you're being ignorant of the options available.

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I've noted other options, and they're obviously inferior to kiting. Again, you can play the game any which way you want, just don't think it's a great game because with your style you arrive at your preferred results and level of difficulty. The gratification here is just inside your head

It's common sense that the developers did what they could to adapt the PnP rules of AD&D 2nd Edition given the time and resources available.

I think they did a fine job - even if the game has plenty of weaknesses.

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Yeah, doesn't sound like the resumé of a classic though.

I'm really curious to hear about some of your favorite games - and please give us some titles of games you consider classic RPGs.

I'm sure I'm not the only one curious to hear about these games that you can't "break".

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Note that I said "possibly games" in my post. Let's take Tetris - that game certainly still works, and is less redundant, than a lot of other games (including BG). This is for several reasons, one being the complexity of RPGs; the combat, the character building, the AI, the level of refinement of the lore - these are heavily subjected to the time of release.
There are a number of older RPGs which I feel work better for a modern audience; let's take Ultima VII. There aren't many RPGs around, even today, that have the same level of interactivity of the world - therefore, you can't get a better offering by playing any random modern RPG.

Personally I can't name a single RPG that's a classic in the sense that you can put it in front of any modern RPGer and he's going to feel like this game could just have come out. Maybe YOU want to enlighten us what you feel are the aspects about BG that make it such a strong title you feel it's timeless