Fallout 4 - Cooling the Hype @ TechRaptor

Don Parsons of TechRaptor wants to cool down the Fallout 4 hype a bit:

So this is probably going to get me killed. But alas I hold it as my sacred duty to tell the truth even when I suspect that truth is not wanted—even if others may disagree. I think Fallout 4 right now is being massively overhyped and there are a lot of points to look at as to why. (...)

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Looking at Bethesda's game series, Don analyzes some negative trends in:

• Past Promises
• The Engine and Combat
• Removing RPG Elements
• That Crafting System
• Radiant Systems
• Large Areas of Nothingness
• Dialogue, Writing and Story

More information.

I do not consider Bethesda as one of my favorites. I enjoyed Skyrim but not a huge amount, and now playing The Witcher 3 with its great storytelling as well as some other great games, my memory of how much I enjoyed Skyrim has gone down somewhat.

Fallout 3 was okay but not nearly as enjoyable to me as Fallout New Vegas which was created by a different developer.

I'm looking forward to Fallout 4 but cautiously, even more so than most games.

It seems odd that to cool the hype one needs to speak negatively about a game, like speaking about weak points is neccesary to bring the discussion back to an equilibrium, when gaming and reviews have never been about that equilibrium.

At least it's nice to read about a different perspective on things.

From the points listed, the removal of RPG elements is a point I always lament, no matter the game. It's a progression I often associate with the side-effects of consecutive streamlining in game sequels. Have an RPG element that seems too convoluted? Flatten it out or remove it entirely. Maybe replace with something really focused. Then we get a slicker gaming experience at the cost of imaginative freedom — good for the crowd in terms of accessibility and carefree fun, often (if not necessarily always) bad for a deeper experience.

Sure, often you might get an overall better game in return. Mass Effect 2 was overall better than ME1, for example, even though I found it too streamlined. But isn't it possible to keep essential RPG elements without sacrificing anything? In that example they went from "too unfocused" to "too focused", IMO.

I'm not all that hyped, but I'm definitely confident it'll be a good game. Also, I don't agree that removing the amount of visible stats is the same as removing RPG elements.

While I don't always agree with their implementations, Bethesda have long been trying to make some of the RPG stuff less abstract and more "natural" by putting it under-the-hood, so to speak.

I think that makes a lot of sense for the kind of immersive experience they're going for.

They want you to forget you're playing a game, and you don't do that by asking people to decide if they have 6 or 7 in strength.

DArtagnan said:

I'm not all that hyped, but I'm definitely confident it'll be a good game. Also, I don't agree that removing the amount of visible stats is the same as removing RPG elements.

While I don't always agree with their implementations, Bethesda have long been trying to make some of the RPG stuff less abstract and more "natural" by putting it under-the-hood, so to speak.

I think that makes a lot of sense for the kind of immersive experience they're going for.

They want you to forget you're playing a game, and you don't do that by asking people to decide if they have 6 or 7 in strength.

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Then why even bother with the RPG elements if immersion is what they are going for? Why not completely get rid of the RPG elements and go for shoot type game?

Looking at Bethesda's game series, Don analyzes some negative trends in:

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TL;DR everything

lostforever said:

Then why even bother with the RPG elements if immersion is what they are going for? Why not completely get rid of the RPG elements and go for shoot type game?

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Because RPG elements are fun?

Stuff like character progression, NPC interaction, stealth/thievery, inventory managment, crafting, loot progression and so on are great fun. It doesn't mean everything has to be tied to a visible number that the player must deal with.

That would be my guess

It's much like if you compare the dialogue sequences in Witcher 3 with a dialogue sequence in Baldur's Gate.

Is Baldur's Gate more of an RPG because you can click pre-written sentences and you have to actually read text?

I don't really think so.

As always, some points I can agree with, others not so much...

"Large Areas of Nothingness"? It's f... Fallout. It is primarily Nothingness. FNV was the "Mojave Wasteland", not the"Mojave densely populated area". In NV there are many, many places where you could put your own settlement. And as the demo has shown, you can perhaps even destroy existing buildings, thus building your settlement on the ruins of an older one. No problem there, sorry. Having "large areas of nothingness" is part of having a nuclear wasteland...

I agree that we should be careful with being overly enthusiastic about promised features, the disappointed about Oblivion's Radiant AI (something I really wanted to see) still stings.

As for RPG elements, I think it kinda depends. I'm a Pen&Paper player and I can enjoy systems with minimalized skills, but also systems like GURPS, that offers pages and pages of skill lists. So it's not easy to say that less skills or more skills would be better. For a computer game, I hate to have skills that are not as important as others. It simply seems to be a waste, then. So every skill there should somehow "count". As I don't know anything about the new skill system (or perk system), I can't have an opinion. I don't care if the skills are handled via perks or not (the difference between Science 1-100 and Science1, 2, 3, 4 is not that big, especially as the important levels are just 25,50,75 and 100 anyway for Science). So, for skills I simply wait and will see if I like the new system or prefer the old one.

The link doesn't work properly for me so I must get rid of the secured option by removing the S in the initial httpS >
http://techraptor.net/content/cooling-hype-fallout-4

As for RPG elements, I think it kinda depends. I'm a Pen&Paper player and I can enjoy systems with minimalized skills, but also systems like GURPS, that offers pages and pages of skill lists. So it's not easy to say that less skills or more skills would be better. For a computer game, I hate to have skills that are not as important as others. It simply seems to be a waste, then. So every skill there should somehow "count". As I don't know anything about the new skill system (or perk system), I can't have an opinion. I don't care if the skills are handled via perks or not (the difference between Science 1-100 and Science1, 2, 3, 4 is not that big, especially as the important levels are just 25,50,75 and 100 anyway for Science). So, for skills I simply wait and will see if I like the new system or prefer the old one.

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Please note that I'm not saying Bethesda's approach is better for RPGs in general. I'm saying it makes sense for what they're trying to do.

Personally, I'm very big on immersion - so I don't mind sacrificing some control for a less gamey experience.

My theory is that (many) old-school RPG fans enjoy the comfortable feeling of being in complete control of their character and his/her stats. That's really what these numbers do for players. They give us a truly tangible picture of what we can and can't do.

It's just that, in the real world, we don't have visible stats for what we can do. It doesn't mean we can't do all kinds of RPG-ish things, we're just not in complete control and can't predict everything based on a character sheet.

That might be uncomfortable, or even scary, for some players, I guess.

Nah... I think in most cases they just happen to like the things that are being removed.

*EDIT*

Misunderstood the post.

Yeah, that much is obvious - but sometimes getting a new perspective on things can help you to appreciate changes that you otherwise wouldn't.

I say this, because that's what's happened to myself over the years. I used to be a very stat-obsessed kind of player.

I think Fallout 4 right now is being massively overhyped

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Seriously?
Did this guy oversleep the past year? If FO4 is massively overhyped, what level of overhype was happening with Destiny then? Overhype of the decade maybe? Peh.


Whatever, onto the part where he lists negative trends.

Past Promises - Say what? Sorry, I can hate Bethesda's not being competent to fix their own bugs, but Bethesda is not Peter Molyneux. Never was. If this point is about Elder Scrolls Online, hell who cares about MMOs these days? Except maybe the article author.

The Engine and Combat - What with it? From the trailer it's obvious that the game will look decent. Oh it's not the prime material for graphics whores and CoD/CS zealots? Big deal. It definetly won't play like a ported phonegame either. Since when is not being a phonegame something negative?

Removing RPG Elements - This is just suspected based on the shown footage, but did Bethesda actually confirm it? In fact, what RPG elements are we talking about here? Endless trashmobs? I bet it's not removed. Although it's not really RPG element just is overused when a developer has no idea how to provide XP to the player with nonrepetitive content.

That Crafting System - What exactly is wrong with it? Oh, yeah, FO4 craftwork goes Sims. And that's… Negative? Tell that to millions who bought and enjoy Sims even today. To me it's exactly the reason to buy the game.

Radiant Systems - Finally something I agree with. Cut the bloody MMO fetch questing crap out of a singleplayer game!

Large Areas of Nothingness - Oh yeah, postapoc world should blossom with life instead? Bah.

Dialogue, Writing and Story - And the second point I'll agree with, but won't hope it'll change. Bethesda doesn't have assets for some quality in storytelling. Sorry. But we'll survive.

Solid article.
Though, I have to say, I never bought a Bethesda game for the story/game itself (with the exception of Morrowind). For me a Beth game always is a sandbox I can shape to my likeing with mods. Construction Kit and mod support are the main reasons for me. Take that away and my interest is halfed.

lostforever said:

Why not completely get rid of the RPG elements and go for shoot type game?

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Bethesda are too scared of triggering a Hiroshima and Nagasaki trauma like event.
If they ever go for the shoot type way, they would reveal in a non ambiguous way that that story of rpg elements is just crap. RPG elements are just gameplay elements whose use defines nothing.
Including them in a product does not guarantee the possibility of roleplaying, and many other games might adopt them without being a RPG.

By the way, the arguments in the article are desesperately sad. It's been known for decades now that Bethesda leaves large chunks of emptiness to allow modders to fill them up.
With the PC scene being more and more about the money and less and less gaming, Bethesda cant be allowed to remove the carpet from under the feet of modders.

DArtagnan said:

Please note that I'm not saying Bethesda's approach is better for RPGs in general. I'm saying it makes sense for what they're trying to do.

Personally, I'm very big on immersion - so I don't mind sacrificing some control for a less gamey experience.

My theory is that (many) old-school RPG fans enjoy the comfortable feeling of being in complete control of their character and his/her stats. That's really what these numbers do for players. They give us a truly tangible picture of what we can and can't do.

It's just that, in the real world, we don't have visible stats for what we can do. It doesn't mean we can't do all kinds of RPG-ish things, we're just not in complete control and can't predict everything based on a character sheet.

That might be uncomfortable, or even scary, for some players, I guess.

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Speak for yourself. I have a 18(00) strength in real life. It is on my birth certificate

Liked Skyrim a great deal and loved FO3. Guess this article has a prerequisite requirement to dislike them both.

Why worry? I'm pretty sure Bethesda won't read the article as the game is pretty much already done.

Hastar said:

Speak for yourself. I have a 18(00) strength in real life. It is on my birth certificate

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Oh yeah? We have several forum trolls with 14 strength on a 1-10 scale and -4 Int!….

I'm all about the exploration and loot hunting, so not having to stop and fiddle with numbers is okay with me; not for every series but for this one. Bethesda's writing has always been horrible, so making up my own story has always been big for my enjoyment of the game.

The fact that the creation engine is still powering the game is the most vital thing. That means that the massive modding community can start tweaking the game immediately. I imagine that there are several F4 mods in pre-production as we speak. That's the thing I'm happiest about, even though the engine is getting long in the tooth.