GOP Corruption and Obstruction

So you are OK with concentration of more power and moneyin the hands of management and others with power, while the middle class erodes and their standard of living falls?

Now, back to our simple yes/no question. Do you approve of the email sent by supporters of your side? Simple question.

What do you think? Are you so clueless after YEARS of discussion to not understand my point of view on death threats on politicians?
 
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So you are OK with concentration of more power and moneyin the hands of management and others with power, while the middle class erodes and their standard of living falls?

Unions are doing as much to erode the middle class as management ever has. When they have too much power, they destroy jobs (just look at Detroit). The key is balance, and right now, the unions have way too much power. You'd have to be blind to not understand that.
 
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So you are OK with concentration of more power and moneyin the hands of management and others with power, while the middle class erodes and their standard of living falls?
I do not feel those are the goals, nor the expected results, of what's actually going on here. Overall, across WI, OH, and IN, government union employees are merely being pushed toward the same rules that those of us in the private sector have been living with for decades.

What do you think? Are you so clueless after YEARS of discussion to not understand my point of view on death threats on politicians?
What do I think? I think you're so damn blinded by hate that you can't force yourself to give a simple one word answer. You refuse to admit, in plain words, that your side has violent kooks threatening very bad things because you're far more comfortable thinking all the nuts are in the Tea Party. You refuse to admit that your indignation over the crosshairs things and other such nonsense is a steaming pile of hypocrisy.
 
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I do not feel those are the goals, nor the expected results, of what's actually going on here. Overall, across WI, OH, and IN, government union employees are merely being pushed toward the same rules that those of us in the private sector have been living with for decades.

I think those are the expected results. And those HAVE been in results in the past 20 years as union power has been eroded and worker benefits have been reduced. As BN would say, you'd have to be blind not to see that.

What do I think? I think you're so damn blinded by hate that you can't force yourself to give a simple one word answer. You refuse to admit, in plain words, that your side has violent kooks threatening very bad things because you're far more comfortable thinking all the nuts are in the Tea Party. You refuse to admit that your indignation over the crosshairs things and other such nonsense is a steaming pile of hypocrisy.

Really, DTE, yet another false accusations and strawman today. You're batting 0 for 3. Congratulations on being the biggest loser.
 
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Unions are doing as much to erode the middle class as management ever has. When they have too much power, they destroy jobs (just look at Detroit). The key is balance, and right now, the unions have way too much power. You'd have to be blind to not understand that.

Yea, right union power is at its lowest levels in 30 years, and the middle class is worse off because of it. No more pensions, but the rich and powerful far eclipse the median. Great insight there...
 
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Yea, right union power is at its lowest levels in 30 years, and the middle class is worse off because of it. No more pensions, but the rich and powerful far eclipse the median. Great insight there…

Union power is at its lowest levels in 30 years because the system that they pushed for, demanded and bought into was unsustainable. Pensions didn't fail because of a lack of union power, they failed because of a combination of back assumptions, bad investments, increased life expectancy, and inability to alter the benefit agreements to make them sustainable.

Take the UAW for example. The UAW had a mandate for its leaders for most of the 70's and 80's that total benefits had to increase EVERY SINGLE YEAR, no exceptions. There was no room for compromise based on the ability of the auto companies to deliver those total benefits. While certainly not the sole reason for the collapse of GM and Chrysler, it was a very significant part (particularly the health care requirement for retirees). GM spends MILLIONS every year for workers to sit on their asses for up to two years at FULL pay. Why? Because the union had the power to demand policies like that.

It's very similar to the problems you see with the Teacher's union in NYC. Another great example of this abuse of power is the Transit Workers Union in the NYC area. They went on an illegal strike in 2005 because the MTA had the audacity to propose that TWU workers contribute 1% of their pay towards their health care coverage! Ohh and increasing the retirement age for full benefits? Hell no!

The TWU boss stated that it was unacceptable that any future TWU member not receive the EXACT same benefits that today's workers were getting, regardless of the economic feasibility of providing those benefits. The MTA is half-broke, and these thugs wouldn't make a single concession.

When one side has that much power, it is a determent to society.
 
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Really, DTE, yet another false accusations and strawman today. You're batting 0 for 3. Congratulations on being the biggest loser.
I really think you need to look up the definition of strawman. Regardless, I notice that you're still refusing a simple one word answer. Do you approve or not?
 
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Strawman - A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

DTE, your need to refine your debating skills to not rely on false claims about your opponent... You may gain some credibility.
 
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Union power is at its lowest levels in 30 years because the system that they pushed for, demanded and bought into was unsustainable

So even after killing unions, companies didn't bring pensions back. Right? Imagine that…

I'm all about sustainable and workable plans. The biggest part of the failure of the US auto industry was poor planning in creating products that would sell. Fuel efficiency and reliability being at the top of the list. Bad designs based on short-term thinking (i.e. poor planning). If they sold decent cars, they could have afforded the pensions.
 
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Still babbling on without taking a definite stand on whether death threats from your side are appropriate. Man, that hate must taste good...
 
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I'm all about sustainable and workable plans. The biggest part of the failure of the US auto industry was poor planning in creating products that would sell. Fuel efficiency and reliability being at the top of the list. Bad designs based on short-term thinking (i.e. poor planning). If they sold decent cars, they could have afforded the pensions.
I've spent my entire working career (2 decades) in the automotive business, Thrasher. You're wrong. Plain and simple, you are fundamentally wrong about this. If you're willing to listen to realities that don't necessarily fit into your desired world view, I'll be happy to explain, from an insider's perspective, what's really to blame for the Big 3's demise.
 
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Right. Blame the unions. Typical management approach when they screw up….
Now who's playing strawman? Both sides have a share of the blame, but none of the actual reasons are the ones you state (which are reasons popularly tossed around by the media, so you're not alone in that error).
 
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I've spent my entire working career (2 decades) in the automotive business, Thrasher. You're wrong. Plain and simple, you are fundamentally wrong about this. If you're willing to listen to realities that don't necessarily fit into your desired world view, I'll be happy to explain, from an insider's perspective, what's really to blame for the Big 3's demise.

While Thrasher doesn't seem to be interested I think that sounds like something I'd like to know.
 
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So even after killing unions, companies didn't bring pensions back. Right? Imagine that…

Did you really think they would come back overnight? Besides, defined contribution is a much more sustainable method than defined benefit anyway.

I'm all about sustainable and workable plans. The biggest part of the failure of the US auto industry was poor planning in creating products that would sell. Fuel efficiency and reliability being at the top of the list. Bad designs based on short-term thinking (i.e. poor planning). If they sold decent cars, they could have afforded the pensions.

Bullshit. Yes, the quality of the product was a big problem, but GM was still the number auto manufacturer in the world until 2006. Ford has been in the top 3 pretty much forever. However, their costs were significantly above their Asian competitors.

In 2005, the average cost per vehicle attributable to GM's health care costs was $1525, much of it attributable to the retirees health care. That was more than the cost of steel in the car! That doesn't even touch the pension cost.

Seriously, get a grasp of how real world economics work and then come back and talk to us.
 
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While Thrasher doesn't seem to be interested I think that sounds like something I'd like to know.
It's actually quite a laundry list and in theory I'm supposed to be working, so I'll probably break it into multiple posts over a period of time.

Let me preface the whole thing with fair disclosure—I never even visited a boardroom of the Big 3, nor have I spent any quality time with the national UAW guys. I have had the opportunity to sit in on portions of a local union contract negotiation, which was very enlightening. I'm definitely "filling in the blanks" on some of the motivations of the muckity-mucks, but I can safely share the "resulting realities" that came out of those motivations. My personal politics are pretty well known here; however, regardless of what Thrasher might try and paint me with, I am not specifically anti-union. I do believe that the unions (both automotive and otherwise) have badly overstepped their role in the past 3 decades or so (and management has allowed that to happen) but that does not mean that they have *no* role. Since this discussion is going to get novel-esque anyway, I will probably not take the time to dig up supporting links. I'm confident that every claim I will make could be readily documented given time and enthusiasm, and I will try to flag any conjectures as such. So, that's a picture of your source and you may draw conclusions as you wish.

First off, I'd like to show why some of the stuff Thrasher mentioned (and the media reports) is simply not correct.

Let's start with the fuel efficiency thing first. Popular perception is that the Big 3 chose not to produce fuel efficient cars. This is simply not true. You have to look at how the government chooses to regulate thru CAFE standards to get a deeper understanding of what's going on. CAFE is based on total sales. So, if Uncle Sam says that the regulation is 30mpg that means that you take all the Cadillacs times 10mpg and all the Malibus at 25mgp and all the Geo Metros at 45mpg, factor in sales of each, and determine a corporate-wide average. (side note- I'm pretty sure that things like pickups and SUVs are not included in the CAFE calculations, which was a motivator to push more customers into those vehicles) The game the car companies play is to try and sell enough of the Metros to pull up the average on the stuff that people actually want to buy. I don't intend to delve into the merits, or lack thereof, of CAFE as that gets a lot more subjective; we'll just work with "what" it is and ignore the "why" and not even touch the "should it".

Now, let's take a look at a specific case study, the Ford Taurus from the late 80's and early 90's. Wildly popular car, best selling vehicle nation-wide for something like 6 years running, decent but not great gas mileage, excellent quality ratings (as good or better than the Japanese competition at the time), roomy without being a boat, reasonably sized drivetrain to have a little "pop" that Americans demand, affordable price for what you got. Ford was not making a huge profit on them, but they *were* making money, particularly given the massive volume and all the efficiencies that go with that. Ford cancelled the Taurus at the end of its cycle (models generally go on 3 year production cycles—they get minor cosmetic tweaks each year, but the significant revisions to drivetrain and/or styling nearly always happen every 3 or 4 years) even though it was the #1 selling vehicle the final year. Why would a company kill a profitable vehicle? Stupid management? No. Stupid union? No. In this case, it's stupid government.

Bottom line, Ford was selling so damn many Tauruses (Tauri?) that they couldn't meet the CAFE. Customers that might buy a cheaper fuel-efficient crackerbox (which Ford did produce during the Taurus years, originally as the Escort—which actually wasn't a bad car, but I digress) could afford the more roomy and more sporty Taurus and so they did. En mass. The Taurus got decent gas mileage, but less than the CAFE standard, which IIRC actually increased (making the problem worse) right around the time the Taurus was killed. The popularity of the model concentrated Ford's overall sales too much. The only way for Ford to meet the CAFE was to eliminate a profitable and wildly popular vehicle and "scatter" those sales among the rest of their offerings—basically force those Escort buyers back into their Escorts (with some also being pushed the other direction into luxury models that got worse gas mileage).

It's a bad business decision from start to finish. Ford lost the model (and keep in mind that a lot of those happy Ford customers, when forced to change, became Honda Civic and Toyota Camry customers instead of Ford Escort customers). 2 assembly factories worth of American union employees that were making money hand-over-fist with all the overtime they were willing to work, as well as all the thousands and thousands of US workers (although not truly "Made in the USA", the Taurus had very high domestic content compared to industry averages of the time) in the supplier chain associated with it—many of those union as well—were spooled down until they could be redirected to other models that weren't selling as well.

Management loses. Union loses. Customers lose. All to a number baked up in Washington. Now, like I said, we could have a whole seperate discussion on whether the CAFE was the "right" thing to do—that's really irrelevant to this particular topic. Ford gets tarred for making bad business decisions. They certainly didn't want to make this business decision. Ford gets tarred for not making fuel efficient cars. They DID make them, but people chose not to buy them. The popular excuses to hammer the Big 3, as dutifully spouted by our dear Thrasher, simply does not line up with the reality of the situation.

Next up, let's take on the unions.
 
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The demise of the American auto industry started in the seventies. Does your experince go back that far?

And blaming regulation for a problem that Japanese automakers could solve doesn't ring true...
 
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And blaming regulation for a problem that Japanese automakers could solve doesn't ring true…


As he said, one of many things. Besides, the point is really that they had a functional product that people WANTED to buy, supposedly bad fuel economy or not, but government regulation made them have to change it.
 
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