What should he get?

Yeah, the Black Panthers, for example, just got a bad rap, right? I'm amazed with the mental gyrations the left has to use to sing the persecution song and still be fine with these sorts of groups. Let us play a bit of PJ's substitution game, shall we? I can see the protests forming at the mere thought.

Indiana Black Expo -> Indiana White Guy Expo
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (I thought that was offensive terminology anyway) -> NAA White P
"NCLR works to improve opportunities for Hispanic Americans" -> NC la Blanco works to improve opportunities for White Americans

The "right" gets wound up because these groups espouse the same closed, preferential attitudes that get us sent to sensitivity training, sued, and fired.

Sorry if I pushed the wrong buttons, dte. I'm not extolling the Black Panthers or groups that advocate violence against 'the man.' I don't know of LaRaza actually doing this, but of course, you may know better.

If somebody wants to get together an organization to improve opportunities for Irish Americans or Swedes, or any other white ethnic group, I certainly wouldn't find that threatening or wrong in any way. You can have your Indiana White Guy expo anytime--in fact, there are lots of white ethnic festivals and expos all over the country--we've got a Czech one here with kolaches and the Divine Baby Jesus or something in Prague. Not to mention tons of hillbillly music fests etc.

If there aren't too many National Associations for the Advancement of White People, though, to use the terms of capitalism, maybe it's because there's no demand, not that they're being blocked by political correctness. :)

EDIT: missed your very last point there, sorry again for speed reading. I agree with you that there's a reasonable anger against the extremist push to punish white society for all the evils of the past. I wasn't referring to mainstream conservative thought, but the FAR right, as I thought I made plain with my reference to my friend who is plainly not just "the right" but the whacked out part of the FAR right.
 
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I'm not equating LaRaza and the NAACP with the Black Panthers, BTW. It's more for illustrating the point.

You actually think Jesse and Al wouldn't be picketting outside the door and painting me as a racist or worse if I opened up shop on the National Association for the Advancement of White People? What really differentiates any of those groups from today's (let's call it "non-violent") KKK? Yet, somehow, we hold national fundraisers for some of them while spitting on the other.

And just so there's no misunderstanding, I think the whole lot of those groups are ultimately racist and therefore detrimental to the lefty utopian "equal society".
 
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I'm not equating LaRaza and the NAACP with the Black Panthers, BTW. It's more for illustrating the point.
Okay--wrong assumption on my part. I'm obviously still flashing on the "Hispanic KKK" reference someone else made.

You actually think Jesse and Al wouldn't be picketting outside the door and painting me as a racist or worse if I opened up shop on the National Association for the Advancement of White People?
Jesse and Al are the old guard that grew up under Jim Crow. I cut them some slack for that, but on the whole I think they're headline chasers and very bad spokesman for their race and culture. Them calling your hypothetical NAAWP racist is indeed probably a given, just like Tancredo doing the same for LaRaza.
What really differentiates any of those groups from today's (let's call it "non-violent") KKK?

That would be their history.


duluth-lynching.jpg


Yet, somehow, we hold national fundraisers for some of them while spitting on the other.
The modern KKK is only non-violent because it has to be--and it's not based on the idea that whites deserve equal rights to blacks, it's based on the premise that blacks have too many rights, like sucking the same air as white people.


And just so there's no misunderstanding, I think the whole lot of those groups are ultimately racist and therefore detrimental to the lefty utopian "equal society".

Fair enough, if you're willing to concede a bit on the possibilities of degrees and shades of gray. But are you saying equality under the law itself is Utopian(and therefore unobtainable?
 
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Yeah, the Black Panthers, for example, just got a bad rap, right? I'm amazed with the mental gyrations the left has to use to sing the persecution song and still be fine with these sorts of groups. Let us play a bit of PJ's substitution game, shall we? I can see the protests forming at the mere thought.

Indiana Black Expo -> Indiana White Guy Expo
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (I thought that was offensive terminology anyway) -> NAA White People
"NCLR works to improve opportunities for Hispanic Americans" -> NC la Blanco works to improve opportunities for White Americans

The "right" gets wound up because these groups espouse the exact same "private club", preferential attitudes that get us sent to sensitivity training, sued, and fired.

The difference is power relations. Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans are disadvantaged compared to whites. How are they supposed to improve things for themselves if organizing to do that makes you yell "KKK! KKK!?" La Raza is giving free English classes to Hispanics, for crying out loud.
 
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I'm not equating LaRaza and the NAACP with the Black Panthers, BTW. It's more for illustrating the point.

You actually think Jesse and Al wouldn't be picketting outside the door and painting me as a racist or worse if I opened up shop on the National Association for the Advancement of White People? What really differentiates any of those groups from today's (let's call it "non-violent") KKK? Yet, somehow, we hold national fundraisers for some of them while spitting on the other.

I didn't see anybody picketing in front of this place when I passed by there:

327479784_a702990f16_b.jpg


3524830512_727d09c942.jpg


And just so there's no misunderstanding, I think the whole lot of those groups are ultimately racist and therefore detrimental to the lefty utopian "equal society".

I disagree. Grouping together for cultural reasons, or to improve opportunities and the general situation of a disadvantaged group is not the same as banding together to oppress an already disadvantaged group.

It's curious, though, that many people at the extremes of the political spectrum -- right or left -- appear to be "power-blind" -- IOW, they appear incapable of grasping the difference power relations make. I have a feeling this may be rooted somewhere very deep in the structure of personality, beyond reach of reason; I also often see it in the same people who instinctively think in binaries and have trouble seeing nuances or shades of gray.
 
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Well, for one thing, PETA isn't the KKK either (although it is admittedly closer).

For another, I didn't see the likes of the US Marine Corps, Walt Disney Corporation, or Schering-Plough on the PETA list. DaisyDog, YogaFit, and OrganicBouquet.com aren't quite the same thing.

The existence of a list doesn't, indeed, mean squat -- but the content of a list means... if not quite everything, at least a great deal.

The list doesn't mean anything other than Political correctness and ignorance.

La Raza translates to 'The Race'. Any caucasian group that used that translation would be persecuted across the globe.

Among The Race’s most infamous government-funded charter schools is La Academia Semillas del Pueblo. The ethnic separatist principal of the school, Marcos Aguilar, told a sympathetic UCLA interviewer:

“We don’t want to drink from a white water fountain, we have our own wells and our natural reservoirs and our way of collecting rain in our aqueducts. We don’t need a white water fountain. . . . We are not interested in what they have because we have so much more and because the world is so much larger. And ultimately the white way, the American way, the neoliberal, capitalist way of life will eventually lead to our own destruction.”

Key among the secondary organizations is the radical racist group Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan, or Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan (MEChA), one of the most anti-American groups in the country.

"Chicano is our identity; it defines who we are as people. It rejects the notion that we...should assimilate into the Anglo-American melting pot...Aztlan was the legendary homeland of the Aztecas ... It became synonymous with the vast territories of the Southwest, brutally stolen from a Mexican people marginalized and betrayed by the hostile custodians of the Manifest Destiny." (Statement on University of Oregon MEChA Website, Jan. 3, 2006)

MEChA isn't at all shy about their goals, or their views of other races. Their founding principles are contained in these words in "El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan" (The Spiritual Plan for Aztlan):

"In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. ... Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. ... We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."

That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."

This is coming straight from the official MEChA sites at Georgetown University, the University of Texas, UCLA, University of Michigan, University of Colorado, University of Oregon, and many other colleges and universities around the country.

MEChA and the La Raza movement teach that Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington State make up an area known as "Aztlan" -- a fictional ancestral homeland of the Aztecs before Europeans arrived in North America. As such, it belongs to the followers of MEChA. These are all areas America should surrender to "La Raza" once enough immigrants, legal or illegal, enter to claim a majority, as in Los Angeles. The current borders of the United States will simply be extinguished.

This plan is what is referred to as the "Reconquista" or reconquest, of the Western U.S.

But it won't end with territorial occupation and secession. The final plan for the La Raza movement includes the ethnic cleansing of Americans of European, African, and Asian descent out of "Aztlan."

As Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge's MEChA chapter has been quoted as saying: "The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it]. Once Aztlan is established, ethnic cleansing would commence: Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled -- opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power."

Former MEChA members include Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who was officially endorsed by La Raza for mayor and was awarded La Raza's Graciela Olivarez Award. Now we know why he refuses to condemn a sea of foreign flags in his city. California Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante is also a former MEChA member. He delivered the keynote address at La Raza's 2002 Annual Convention.

The National Council of La Raza and its allies in public office make no repudiation of the radical MEChA and its positions. In fact, as recently as 2003, La Raza was actively funding MEChA, according to federal tax records.

Video of La Raza founder Jose Angel Gutiterrez

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=493_1185937458&c=1
 
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The list doesn't mean anything other than Political correctness and ignorance.

Do you seriously believe -- seriously -- that the US Marine Corps, the Walt Disney Corporation, and Ford Motor Company would want to be associated with anything resembling the KKK?

La Raza translates to 'The Race'. Any caucasian group that used that translation would be persecuted across the globe.

You know, you *could* have looked it up, instead of regurgitating yet another talking point -- and a straight cut-and-paste this time, too. Because used in this context, it actually translates to "the community" (of American Spanish-speakers).

Video of La Raza founder Jose Angel Gutiterrez

Except, of course, that José Angel Gutierrez is not "the" (or even "a") founder of La Raza.

Had you bothered to look it up, you'd also have found that the connection between the MEChA and La Raza amounts to a single contribution of $2,500 to allow members of a single chapter of the organization to travel home for Thanksgiving. Oh, and, this is what the NCLR had to say about the MEChA in 2001: :)

Raul Yzaguirre said:
Washington, DC – Recently the National Council of La Raza (NCLR) became aware of a website and other information that is being circulated on the Internet by La Voz de Aztlan. The phrases the site frequently uses, “La Raza de Aztlan” or “La Raza,” are generic terms that many use to refer to Mexican American people in this country. NCLR has no connection whatsoever to the website or its sponsoring group.

I am issuing this somewhat unusual statement because, after a cursory review of the website, I found it to be full of reprehensible and bigoted references toward a number of communities – in particular, to the Jewish American community. No responsible Latino organization or leader of my acquaintance agrees with the misinformation being dispensed on the site, nor do I know of any who concur with the grotesque stereotypes that appear in many of its alleged “articles.” This site purports to be an “advocacy clearinghouse” for the Mexican American community, but it is anything but that. Its rhetoric is completely antithetical to anyone truly committed to civil rights for all in this nation – it not only disparages Jews, it is full of ugly and snide references to gays and lesbians. Moreover, it attacks the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), a major Hispanic civil rights organization, apparently because some of its staff have chosen to marry people of other faiths.

These manifestations of hate, intolerance, and bigotry should be condemned by all Americans, especially when carried out in the name of fighting discrimination and oppression against our community. All Americans of conscience should know that this site is the work of a tiny, fringe group and does not reflect the opinions and feelings of the overwhelming majority of Latinos in this country.
 
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I didn't actually say that any of these positions were fallacious (although IMO most of them are). The point is that the "Hitler was a Darwinist" statement is a far-right talking point used to discredit "evolutionism." There was absolutely no other reason I could divine for Oxlar to bring it up when he did.

Come on PJ, quit it. You damn well know thats not what happened in that thread.
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7101&page=14

I said that in response to what Dartagnan said about Hitler exterminating the jews and about there being other aspects to his ideology. I said he was right and brought up his interest in Eugenics which has roots in darwinism or social darwinism. My post had nothing to do with trying to discredit evolutionism.
 
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So what *was* your reason to bring Darwin into it? I included it on my list, because that particular chain of thought is a standard extreme-right talking point, and you did pop it out on cue in a discussion, with no apparent concrete reason whatsoever to do so. It may not have been your biggest quack or waddle, but it was a very characteristic one.
 
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Do you seriously believe -- seriously -- that the US Marine Corps, the Walt Disney Corporation, and Ford Motor Company would want to be associated with anything resembling the KKK?



You know, you *could* have looked it up, instead of regurgitating yet another talking point -- and a straight cut-and-paste this time, too. Because used in this context, it actually translates to "the community" (of American Spanish-speakers).



Except, of course, that José Angel Gutierrez is not "the" (or even "a") founder of La Raza.

(Had you bothered to look it up, you'd also have found that the connection between the MEChA and La Raza amounts to a single contribution of $2,500 to allow members of a single chapter of the organization to travel home for Thanksgiving.)


I'm man enough to admit when I've read something wrong. I confused La Raza with La Raza Unida. It turns out he was the founder of the La Raza Unida, not La Raza. I think this is where so much confusion stems from, is the similarities in names and the common use of the term 'La Raza' is used.

However there is still a lot of grey area for me with these organizations. That was evident when the pro illegal immigration marches happened a few years back and there were a sea of mexican flags as they marched through american streets. Instead of uniting as hispanics or mexicans they need to assimilate as Americans, legally.

While it lessens negative connotations with Sotomayor, there still is a decent following of the ideology of Aztlan. I've heard from a lot of people who live in the southwest that say this ideology is rampant.
 
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So what *was* your reason to bring Darwin into it? I included it on my list, because that particular chain of thought is a standard extreme-right talking point, and you did pop it out on cue in a discussion, with no apparent concrete reason whatsoever to do so. It may not have been your biggest quack or waddle, but it was a very characteristic one.

Quit chasing ghosts. There was no connection between me saying that and some right wing talking point. I had simply watched some documentaries that covered that material. Just relating.
 
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I'm man enough to admit when I've read something wrong. I confused La Raza with La Raza Unida. It turns out he was the founder of the La Raza Unida, not La Raza. I think this is where so much confusion stems from, is the similarities in names and the common use of the term 'La Raza' is used.

It's not just you. There's been a concerted campaign from the far right to confuse people on this exact point.

Put another way, you've been lied to.

However there is still a lot of grey area for me with these organizations. That was evident when the pro illegal immigration marches happened a few years back and there were a sea of mexican flags as they marched through american streets. Instead of uniting as hispanics or mexicans they need to assimilate as Americans, legally.

One of the NCLR's stated objectives is to do just that. That's why they offer free English classes to Hispanics, for example. Here's the NCLR on its mission:

NCLR said:
NCLR’s work as a civil rights institution is about inclusion and participation in the American Dream, including extensive efforts to assist new immigrants in the process of fully integrating into American life. In fact, NCLR and its Affiliates work everyday to provide English classes, support naturalization efforts, and offer other services that help integrate immigrants fully into American society.

While it lessens negative connotations with Sotomayor, there still is a decent following of the ideology of Aztlan. I've heard from a lot of people who live in the southwest that say this ideology is rampant.

No doubt. But since Sotomayor personally isn't associated with it, what does it have to do with her qualifications for the SCOTUS, any more than, say, the KKK has to do with a white, male, non-KKK-associated Georgian's?
 
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Quit chasing ghosts. There was no connection between me saying that and some right wing talking point. I had simply watched some documentaries that covered that material. Just relating.

Thanks, that figures. (If the documentaries used the code word "Darwin movement," I know who are behind them, btw.)
 
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Throw him into a pond to see if he floats, if he does, burn him?
 
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Seriously though, I'm quite curious to see how this pans out. Not just with him, but the 3 accomplices who were also charged with First-degree murder as well...
 
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The timeline continues to be updated at our local news station link

Here

The latest is another arrest, this time of a 43 year old who supposedly planned it all:
WEWOKA, OK -- A fourth suspect in a deadly Oklahoma City pharmacy robbery has been captured. Authorities arrested 43-year-old Anthony Morrison Wednesday in Wewoka.

According to court documents, Morrison orchestrated the pharmacy robbery on May 19th that left 16-year-old Antwun Parker dead. The other suspect, 14-year-old Jevontai Ingram, told police Morrison gave him and Parker the clothes and masks to wear along with an unloaded gun.

Morrison denied having anything to do with the robbery.

Along with murder, he is also charged with conspiracy to commit a felony and possession of a firearm after a former felony conviction. He's being held at the Oklahoma County Jail.
 
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You really took that one to heart, didn't you. While it's not nearly as bad as Oxlar would portray, would you deny that universities (particularly the liberal arts faculties) have a strong liberal slant?

I'd argue that higher levels of intelligence & education are correlated with liberal views and those people are more likely to go to university :p
 
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@Benedict: I have a collection of various crazed posts from the internet over the course of the last election--and what a rich tapestry it was--but your remark made me think of this one:

posted by hurrieupanddiegop @ Politico 12/03/08:
"...I used to be Republican, then I went to college and read a book. There is no liberal media bias, there is objective reality; and then there is bizarro Republican world where man rode the dinosaurs, Sarah Palin is smart, and the fundamentals of the economy are strong."


(To my conservative friends--just joking around. I know there are many educated and intelligent people who are conservatives...and plenty of brain-dead liberals.)

Edit: @ dte: I hope nothing I said in my post about the KKK and so forth was offensive to you. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the subject and I'm quite willing to hear your side of the debate anytime. I think it's something we all need to air out, to examine and to evaluate.
 
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