No, of course not, you were talking in general.
Right, JDR
Er....I was actually. If you want to insist on making something of it, which many of us have grown accustomed to by now, then suit yourself.
What is a cRPG?
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Er....I was actually. If you want to insist on making something of it, which many of us have grown accustomed to by now, then suit yourself.
D
DArtagnan
Guest
Er....I was actually. If you want to insist on making something of it, which many of us have grown accustomed to by now, then suit yourself.
I'm just pointing out the obvious.
I doubt you could say anything that I would want to "make something" out of
But you could always just stay honest, and you won't have to grow accustomed to things like this.
And I was just stating a fact.
Huh? Is this really DArtagnan talking right now? Doesn't sound like the one I know.
polyhedron
Watcher
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Cool responses guys, whatever furthers the development of the idea can only be fun to read at least for me.
excuse the lateness of my reply I've been very busy.
@Dhruin:
okay as per definitions measurable quantities are found within them, Has-has not, is-is not, without quantities we aren't really defining or measuring anything are we? quantities may be "qualitatively evaluated' as you say to provide the definition.
to your counterarguments of my points, some illumination maybe:
1.Depth and Complexity isn't just about character stats. it applies to character interaction, world interaction/detail, It is also not about the amount of statistics you as a player may see while playing. For a Tabletop example: this is how much your dm knows about what is happening in the game(world, rules, etc.) and perhaps his real life knowledge in addition to your knowledge of the game. the normal interactions you have, create the depth of the gameworld that is enjoyable to you both. As for CRPGs the two you mentioned have almost similar amounts of depth and complexity(manipulation of objects, stats, etc.) the other areas are very different though.
2.Dialogue is not the only part of the narrative. DnD is awesome. You were creating the story through your actions. one that you could tell me about most likely(I would enjoy hearing it too.). CRPGs have drawbacks and require decent exposition because the level of communication occurring between humans is at a much higher level then any current technological advance. In addition each of your characters had their own personal motivations and group motivations, as well as the DM motivation to kill you LOL. All of these combined create one hell of a fantasy narrative even if you never said anything to each other, which would have been cool looking.
3. This is kind of DM dependent remember. Also you choose to enter the tomb. you could have fallen on your sword or attacked party members or quit or went to the bar and had a drink. CnC in table top is always dependent on the player's and the DM. Naturally CRPGs are limited by the technology, resources(as someone has said), and writing. CRPGs in order to be a RPG require good choices and consequences and they have only become more evolved from the 80s to the 90s. The recent era is problematic for a myriad of reasons that are often obfuscated in nearly any discussion irregardless of the Taste, Opinion, and Intelligence of the participants.
4. Here is where you are kind of right. A tabletop game doesn't need any real challenge since it mostly an artificial agreement between the players and the dm. CRPGs are striving to emulate tabletop games. However all console, computer, etc. games have some form of challenge weak or strong. Just because you cheat it doesn't remove any challenge from the intended game it just changes the game to suits someones personal taste. CRPGs are and have been characterized by their challenge that the player is eventually allowed to overcome through his effort.
In short, you rock! Take my +1 Mace of Disruption for your future adventures.
@DArtagnan:
First off, sorry for putting words into your mouth I read too deeply into what you said. I thought you meant you would have preferred torments exposition in a more visibly expressive medium.
Secondly, my response: Writing is Subjective, Its quality is not. Or do you disagree with Pulitzer prizes or any other award for excellence. Video game writing in particular is just as varied in style as any writing you would find getting an award. Video game writing also includes the environment/atmosphere or any particular part of the game that can be considered characterization of the story. CRPG in particular attempt to define themselves through excellent application of the written word to a visually interactive format, just because they fail often doesn't mean the categories quality is subjective to the user. plot-holes, inconsistency/incoherency, poor character archetypes are characteristic of poor quality writing and poor quality games. One must recognize that there are universally bad components that can transcend whatever medium your writing for and degrade the quality of the work.
I will play BioForge since you recommend it as I have seen it around and was curious.
Its cool to disagree wholly or not. I enjoy a civil argument that furthers or refines the interpretations of the participants and hope all of you feel the same.
@Wolfing: one can see the addition of good story,choices, etc. as an evolution to the ideal of the Tabletop RPG which is essentially what a CRPG goes for.
sincerely
polyhedron
excuse the lateness of my reply I've been very busy.
@Dhruin:
okay as per definitions measurable quantities are found within them, Has-has not, is-is not, without quantities we aren't really defining or measuring anything are we? quantities may be "qualitatively evaluated' as you say to provide the definition.
to your counterarguments of my points, some illumination maybe:
1.Depth and Complexity isn't just about character stats. it applies to character interaction, world interaction/detail, It is also not about the amount of statistics you as a player may see while playing. For a Tabletop example: this is how much your dm knows about what is happening in the game(world, rules, etc.) and perhaps his real life knowledge in addition to your knowledge of the game. the normal interactions you have, create the depth of the gameworld that is enjoyable to you both. As for CRPGs the two you mentioned have almost similar amounts of depth and complexity(manipulation of objects, stats, etc.) the other areas are very different though.
2.Dialogue is not the only part of the narrative. DnD is awesome. You were creating the story through your actions. one that you could tell me about most likely(I would enjoy hearing it too.). CRPGs have drawbacks and require decent exposition because the level of communication occurring between humans is at a much higher level then any current technological advance. In addition each of your characters had their own personal motivations and group motivations, as well as the DM motivation to kill you LOL. All of these combined create one hell of a fantasy narrative even if you never said anything to each other, which would have been cool looking.
3. This is kind of DM dependent remember. Also you choose to enter the tomb. you could have fallen on your sword or attacked party members or quit or went to the bar and had a drink. CnC in table top is always dependent on the player's and the DM. Naturally CRPGs are limited by the technology, resources(as someone has said), and writing. CRPGs in order to be a RPG require good choices and consequences and they have only become more evolved from the 80s to the 90s. The recent era is problematic for a myriad of reasons that are often obfuscated in nearly any discussion irregardless of the Taste, Opinion, and Intelligence of the participants.
4. Here is where you are kind of right. A tabletop game doesn't need any real challenge since it mostly an artificial agreement between the players and the dm. CRPGs are striving to emulate tabletop games. However all console, computer, etc. games have some form of challenge weak or strong. Just because you cheat it doesn't remove any challenge from the intended game it just changes the game to suits someones personal taste. CRPGs are and have been characterized by their challenge that the player is eventually allowed to overcome through his effort.
In short, you rock! Take my +1 Mace of Disruption for your future adventures.
@DArtagnan:
First off, sorry for putting words into your mouth I read too deeply into what you said. I thought you meant you would have preferred torments exposition in a more visibly expressive medium.
Secondly, my response: Writing is Subjective, Its quality is not. Or do you disagree with Pulitzer prizes or any other award for excellence. Video game writing in particular is just as varied in style as any writing you would find getting an award. Video game writing also includes the environment/atmosphere or any particular part of the game that can be considered characterization of the story. CRPG in particular attempt to define themselves through excellent application of the written word to a visually interactive format, just because they fail often doesn't mean the categories quality is subjective to the user. plot-holes, inconsistency/incoherency, poor character archetypes are characteristic of poor quality writing and poor quality games. One must recognize that there are universally bad components that can transcend whatever medium your writing for and degrade the quality of the work.
I will play BioForge since you recommend it as I have seen it around and was curious.
Its cool to disagree wholly or not. I enjoy a civil argument that furthers or refines the interpretations of the participants and hope all of you feel the same.
@Wolfing: one can see the addition of good story,choices, etc. as an evolution to the ideal of the Tabletop RPG which is essentially what a CRPG goes for.
sincerely
polyhedron
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D
DArtagnan
Guest
No worries. It's true that I think Torment would have been a better experience, for me, if I didn't have to read the entire game - but I didn't speak as to the objective quality of the writing.
I just like to be understood, because otherwise it's impossible to have a good debate at length.
I don't have a problem with awarding people for their work. If a group of people, whether they're an institution or not, consider a particular work worthy of a prize - then I think it's quite fine to show appreciation through an award.
What I don't agree with, is that such an award represents objective quality - be it an Oscar, a Pulitzer, an Emmy, or whatever else. It simply means that a group of people liked the work more than other works at that particular time.
Just like I don't think "No Country for Old Men" and "There Will Be Blood" were worthy of the Oscars they got. Other people DID think they were, so that's ok with me. It's just a difference of opinion, that's all.
I'm not sure I can make much sense of that, but I must disagree once again. The quality of any given category is indeed subjective to the player in question. If he likes it, it's good - if he doesn't it's bad. But there's nothing objective about that.
Not really. There are components that apparently no one enjoys, so maybe that can be close to an objective lack of quality. But if one person, somewhere, enjoys it - it's not universally bad, now is it.
Please keep in mind that it's ancient in terms of aesthetics
Try to imagine that you're back in 1995 when playing.
Naturally.
I very much enjoy people who can state their opinion without becoming emotional, and you seem very civil and pleasant.
RivianWitch
Keeper of the Watch
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- 744
Yet even the acronym "CRPG" itself is a bit of a misnomer, since according to some definitions it stands for "Console Role Playing Game", according to others as Classic(al) Role Playing Game", and others again as "Computer Role Playing game"
Ah, there's even one that would have it be "Character Role Playing Game "
As for the exact qualities it needs to qualify for the name, debates will continue to rage all over the Internet...
Carry on....
Ah, there's even one that would have it be "Character Role Playing Game "
As for the exact qualities it needs to qualify for the name, debates will continue to rage all over the Internet...
Carry on....
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txa1265
SasqWatch
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You mean I'm not what you meant by: "Anyone who hasn't played very far into Planescape shouldn't be judging the writing."
It's not like I'm the only one in the thread who specifically said I didn't get very far in Planescape and then commented on the writing.
No, of course not, you were talking in general.
Right, JDR
Remember that thing where you said you were the rational one and everyone else had emotional over-reactions ...
But seriously, over several threads there are more than a few who have said basically "I tried PST a couple of times, got maybe an hour in and was bored silly and don't see the big deal about the writing". In other words, it isn't just you. When I read JDR's post I saw it as a general statement as well.
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DArtagnan
Guest
Remember that thing where you said you were the rational one and everyone else had emotional over-reactions ...
But seriously, over several threads there are more than a few who have said basically "I tried PST a couple of times, got maybe an hour in and was bored silly and don't see the big deal about the writing". In other words, it isn't just you. When I read JDR's post I saw it as a general statement as well.
Is it really so hard to believe I don't get emotional on forums? I guess it is. Ok, if you insist, let's say I was being emotional without registering the emotion
In any case, I believe I've said what I wanted to say about this.
---
One day I'll force myself to get through PST, and I'll see how I find the writing. If it changes to a different style - then I just might enjoy it afterall. I just doubt that it does, because very few games change writing style mid-game.
In fact, I can't think of a single game to do that.
Attachments
D
DArtagnan
Guest
I think I understand now.
I thought of this as I wrote, but then I said to myself: "The Watch is too mature for that"
Anyway:
*edit*
By the way, that looks to be from the post I didn't post...
Silly system.
txa1265
SasqWatch
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Is it really so hard to believe I don't get emotional on forums? I guess it is. Ok, if you insist, let's say I was being emotional without registering the emotion
hehe ... I was just teasing!
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DArtagnan
Guest
I thought of this as I wrote, but then I said to myself: "The Watch is too mature for that"
....Nah :lol:
Too mature = boring.
But who says "story" is "the ideal of the Tabletop RPG"? Except for one (Dragonlance), none of the campaigns I played when I played D&D (and other systems) had any 'story'. The DM just presented a world to us, there was no 'story', no master plan. We were just there, to do what we wanted, to create our own stories. There was no major villain, none of us were 'the chosen one', etc.
Squeek
connoisseur of tidbits
That's how we played it too, my friends and I, and I think you've really put your finger right on it, wolfing. My answer to that is that it depends on the DM and the universe he designed.
Consider the real world. It has a story composed of a myriad of individual stories. That's its history. That's how it's working right now. And it will always continue to work that way into the future. We just play our parts, as they say.
But imaginary worlds aren't limited that way. They can just as easily have multiple iterations of history. Their stories can exist in variety, composed of assortments of individual stories, or pieces of stories, that can be mixed and matched to make up complete individual versions.
That's how RPG works. It's done collaboratively, or that's the idea, anyway. Players take charge of roles and make decisions. DMs are in charge or worlds and make decisions of their own. Together they aim toward something worthwhile. In fantastic worlds "worthwhile" means doing something really incredible.
More than any other reason, CRPGs have always fallen somewhat short because, like all other programs, they're made in single iterations. There's only so much variety that can be packed into a product that's created and sold only once (and for only $60). That's why I think (and have often said) that the paradigm for CRPG needs to change.
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And that is the difference of TDE : It *has* a detailed backstory. There actually is something evolving as the - so called by fans - "Meta Plot" of Aventuria , and it developes over time, for about 20 years now. You can read every new development in the kind of monthly newspaper called "Aventurischer Bote".
And adventures for P&P groups often rely on this continent-wide development.
Myranor, on the other hand, doesn't have such a "meta plot", since it was made as a rather free-roaming world. Anyone can invent something new for Myranor, although this will only be valid for the inventors own P&P group, then.
The ongoing history of Myranor is so slow that it counts in centuries and even in millennia. (Much like in Star Wars.)
[Edit: Oh, my grammar ...]
But then, is it really full RPG? Can the group decide to kill the king of whatever if it's part of the detailed backstory? It's like the one campaign I played with a 'story', Dragonlance. In one part the group saw Toede in the Inn, and one of the group decided to attack him and pulled his bow, natural 20 on the roll... restricted by script immunity the DM said something like 'he noticed you went for the bow and pulled a soldier in front of him' or something.
In the pen & paper groups, this is possible - to kill the king (there is currently no king there, only a queen), although no-one would have the intentions to do so. Normally.
But then, this wouldn't be part of the *official* meta-plot anymore, it would only exist in the p&p groups own universe, then.
Of course, you must keep in mind that it is all up to the game master, eventually. He or she is the one deciding how he story - I mean the P&P adventure - would go within the group.
He or she could allow or block anything - in the end it's all up to the GM.
In some adventures, the "freedom grade" is much bigger than in some others. Some are kind of "railroading", requiring a certain way of solving problems, meanwhile others are more open.
And that is always up to the writer of these adventures.
And in TDE it is a bit more complicated, because a small group of editors is always developing the official time line and history of Aventuria. They are the ones who set it all.
But this doesn't mean one couldn't develop "house rules" ...
But then, this wouldn't be part of the *official* meta-plot anymore, it would only exist in the p&p groups own universe, then.
Of course, you must keep in mind that it is all up to the game master, eventually. He or she is the one deciding how he story - I mean the P&P adventure - would go within the group.
He or she could allow or block anything - in the end it's all up to the GM.
In some adventures, the "freedom grade" is much bigger than in some others. Some are kind of "railroading", requiring a certain way of solving problems, meanwhile others are more open.
And that is always up to the writer of these adventures.
And in TDE it is a bit more complicated, because a small group of editors is always developing the official time line and history of Aventuria. They are the ones who set it all.
But this doesn't mean one couldn't develop "house rules" ...