New Californian censorship law for games in the near future?

Exactly, why are the parents letting them play this "made up" game?
Because the single parent is stuck working 60 hours per week and can't even hope to afford put their kid in day care for that long? Heck if I know. It's not going to be very important until somebody actually makes such a game, though.

Alrik: I don't know if being de-sensitized somewhat to violence is really enough. If it's so strong that the person doesn't really care anymore if somebody gets injured then sure, that's terrible. But if all this is doing is making it so the kid doesn't cry if you run over a squirrel then I'm not going to back carving out exceptions to free speech to prevent it.
 
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Because the single parent is stuck working 60 hours per week and can't even hope to afford put their kid in day care for that long? Heck if I know. It's not going to be very important until somebody actually makes such a game, though.

The kids can't buy M rated games right now. Ever try to buy an M rated game from Best Buy? They carded me there and I have grey hair. You think they'll let some punk kid buy an M rated game?

Now if the kid got it some other way then I'm sorry, but that 60 hour per week BS is a sad excuse. My mother worked just as hard if not harder working for a place that sucked the very soul out of her, but she knew exactly what kind of games I was playing. Hell, she would normally play Ulitma III and IV with me. She made up her own mind not to let me play Leisure Suit Larry when I was a kid even though it was a Sierra game.

I am sick of this "We have to protect the kids". Governments are not here to babysit kids. The ESRB is already enforced in pretty much every gaming outlet out there. The only state that doesn't understand this is California.
 
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Well, here in Germany we believe that if parents are not able to protect their kids, then the state must do it.

But there are terrible failings, too.

We have a "Jugendamt", kind of a "lesser ministry" which is about Youth, Social things and Families. Kind of social workers. They are there as a public place for families with financial and otherwise difficulties. And their "order" or "principle" is to protect the children from harm.

But recently, we hd several very, very sad and difficult events (in the press) whwere they just failed. Grossly. There had been families, where the Jugendamt had already intervened with them because they were "known" to be mistreat their children - in almost all cases they had been families with social difficulties, too.

In these sad cases, some Jugendamt workers sometimes even visited these families - but they didn't notice the injuries these children already had from mistreating. Plus, families abusing children are already known to often say "this child fell down the stairs" to explain the bruises and injuries.
In these few sad cases, the workers visited them, didn't see the injuries or/and get themselves talked away - and a few days or weeks later the child was dead. From injuries, from misuse. And THEN the press and the shocked public says : "Why on earth didn't they see it ??? If the had been able to see it, this child could have been saved !!!"

These are families where no helping hand is available, and thus the children don't get proper education. Because both parents (or sometimes one of the parents isn't even available) go working until late - and THEN they're just too exhausted to look after the kid. Because the wages are so poor the prents need to work so much they jut can't - don't have the time - to look after the kid.

And these kids are those who buy themselves violent games - often with the help of older fellows of school or elsewhere.

Recently I overheard a fragment of a talk of two girls. "But - aren't you 16 ?" "No, but it doesn't matter ..." I guess they wanted to go to a party or into a Disco. They're just trying to get around laws - which re basically meant to protect them. But they see no sense in it.

And right now we have quite a heavy discussion going on here in our country of how to enable parents to be able to carefully and successfully protect and educate children ... And this is mostly a case of socially chllenced families. Not not only. There might be "socially cold" families, too. Where the materialistic point of view overrides things like compassion, love and mercy. "Can't buy me love", like the Beatles put it. You can't buy the love of a child just wth money. And if someone thinks so, then something's wrong there. A whole society might be wrong, then. This is what is currently being discussed here in our country.
 
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Alrik that's a sad story, not uncommon around the world, but sad. What has it got to do with video games?

Recently I overheard a fragment of a talk of two girls. "But - aren't you 16 ?" "No, but it doesn't matter …" I guess they wanted to go to a party or into a Disco. They're just trying to get around laws - which re basically meant to protect them. But they see no sense in it.

How is this behavior different from any typical teenager? ;)

Also, I'm unsure if it's a lost in translation thing or not, but I really do not like your phrasing of "socially cold" people. People have a right to want to be left the frick alone.

Of course, if there is abuse in the household then the government should step in and take measures, but it's a slippery slope to have that protection and yet preserve some sense of freedom/privacy. They sure as hell shouldn't target people who just want to be left alone unless some teacher/doctor notices a pattern of bruises on the kid.
 
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Also, I'm unsure if it's a lost in translation thing or not, but I really do not like your phrasing of "socially cold" people. People have a right to want to be left the frick alone.

Well, I rather think it's a thing of cultures. We have still quite a deep encouragement of social responsibility within the society - although this has been eroded within the last 2-3 decades.

Germans, on the other hand, cnnot understand to some extend why the american society is so much ... relying on self-service that some people just cannot helped. In German belief, it is kind of a "duty" of the richer people to help the poorer ones (although fewer and fewer do so; the Germans often believe this is the "americanization" of German society), and of course the state as the very last resort of help should help them, too.

We here in Germany cannot understand, for example, the resistance against Obama's health reform - since we already have a similar system here (as fas as I understood it, although I must say that I don't know much details of the reform yet; only what the press and TV presented to me).

We have different problems, though. The lobbyism of the medicine companies is so powerful that we have to pay the highest prices for medicine in the world. Or so people believe (there have been numerous newspaper articles and TV news about that recently). Here in Germany it is not completely clear where these inflated prices come from, but everyone assumes that they are a direct result of lobbyism.
Fact is, they are there.

I think we really have different beliefs regarding society.
 
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Danger with censorship is that it drives to unrealism and that's truly HARMFUL.

Like in the game, if you shoot a guy with shotgun…
1) The guy drops down with dust cloud and leaves ammo to be looted. Conclusion: Fun and you got a reward too, the loot.
2) The guys internal organs drop to ground and then the body lies on a pool of blood. Conclusion: You are shocked by killing and feel horrible.

What do you think which one is more real and educational? And which way the cendorship drives the games. If censorship is to be used, the ratings should be set by the manner of the action and not by execution of the action.

And about parentship. Why is it that parents always think that it's their doing when their children does something right and it's the other's (school, games, movies etc.) fault when they do something wrong? It should be always parents' responsibility in the end! And I'm saying that as a father. Though here in Finland we have a very old saying that it takes a whole town to parent a child. Personally I think that other parent should be home.

And about USA healthcare, after watching Sicko I didn't knew if I should have cried or laughed even though it was Moore movie. It should be every man's right like library and not a money making business for insurance and medical companies.
 
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Like in the game, if you shoot a guy with shotgun…
1) The guy drops down with dust cloud and leaves ammo to be looted. Conclusion: Fun and you got a reward too, the loot.
2) The guys internal organs drop to ground and then the body lies on a pool of blood. Conclusion: You are shocked by killing and feel horrible.

What do you think which one is more real and educational?

The second one is more educational.

It shows me

- that a human being has blood
- that it has some internal organs
- perhaps even the form and shape of these organs are shown
- one might be even able to count them, depending on how many of these internal organs are spilled on the floor

And more !
 
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And about USA healthcare, after watching Sicko I didn't knew if I should have cried or laughed even though it was Moore movie. It should be every man's right like library and not a money making business for insurance and medical companies.
If you're willing to base any logical decisions whatsoever on a Michael Moore movie, I'll send you copy of "Alice in Wonderland" to use as your reference encyclopedia...
 
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If you're willing to base any logical decisions whatsoever on a Michael Moore movie, I'll send you copy of "Alice in Wonderland" to use as your reference encyclopedia…

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy.
 
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A German commentator put it like this :

Without the things he is protesting against, Mr. Moore is or would be nothing.

Or in other words : He is there, because there are things he doesn't like.

With them gone, he would disppear into nothingness (in terms of media attention).
 
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If you're willing to base any logical decisions whatsoever on a Michael Moore movie, I'll send you copy of "Alice in Wonderland" to use as your reference encyclopedia…

Yes I know and it's a very exaggerated, but there are lot of very good points there. And are you saying, that healthcare should NOT be every man's right like a library? Doesn't sound like equality to me.

Btw, how much does the insurance cost per month to get 100% free healthcare in US? Here in Finland, I'm paying ~25% taxes from my salary, but with that money I got nearly free healthcare among other things.
 
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Ad hominem is a logical fallacy.
There's no way to discuss the movie without naming the maker. Attacking the veracity of a reference is not attacking the person. Back to the ivory tower with thee, demon!
 
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Yes I know and it's a very exaggerated, but there are lot of very good points there. And are you saying, that healthcare should NOT be every man's right like a library? Doesn't sound like equality to me.

Btw, how much does the insurance cost per month to get 100% free healthcare in US? Here in Finland, I'm paying ~25% taxes from my salary, but with that money I got nearly free healthcare among other things.

Conservatives in the US do not want health care except for those who can afford it on their own. They do not believe that health care is a right. They fought against medicare (the US government program for senior citizens), medicaid (the US government program for poor people), any reforms in the current system (except tort reform), ...
 
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Conservatives are damn tired of paying for everyone else to sit on their ass. My taxes are outrageous yet I have neighbors who live off the government and haven't had a job in years. I've talked to them and they don't want a job and they are not looking. They expect us working people, the "conservatives", to pay for everything. Maybe everyone should just stop working in the States. Who will pay for healthcare then? Can 100% of us be sponges? Where will the money come from? Kick out all the illegals, kill NAFTA, and make people EARN a living. What a concept! The reason the nation has so much debt is because it steals all the money from working people and then ships the jobs away so that the working class gets smaller and smaller all the time. You want to fix the USA? Require that to receive a government check or any government services, you must spend 40 hours/week sitting in a cubicle. You can watch educational tv, read textbooks, and any other activity designed to get you paying work. If you're disabled, you'll be allowed to telemarket for companies in return for a check. You cannot screw around and collect a check. It's really that simple. If you must stay at home, it is your responsibility to find someone to pay your bills. It should be illegal for welfare people to own better stuff than I can afford. Also, if you're unemployed for more than 2 years, they should tie your tubes until you've had a job for a year or more. No babies for sponges.
 
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Kick out all the illegals, kill NAFTA, and make people EARN a living. What a concept! The reason the nation has so much debt is because it steals all the money from working people and then ships the jobs away so that the working class gets smaller and smaller all the time.

Alas, all of which are promoted by conservatives to support their business interests.
 
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Good! Business makes the world go round, not laziness. A businessman should be president. Someone who is willing to take the challenge of returning to the black. Ross Perot would have been great for this country, even though he was a nutcase.
 
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Good! Business makes the world go round, not laziness. A businessman should be president. Someone who is willing to take the challenge of returning to the black. Ross Perot would have been great for this country, even though he was a nutcase.

I agree with that part, that people should work for their living, but what does it have to do with healthcare. The unemployment fund, or whatever it is called, is a whole different thing. Or do you think that poor people would hurt themselves just to use free healthcare for fun. :D If you happen to lose your job, cannot find new one for a while, even if you try, and you happen to get sick without insurance, how would you feel like to be unable to get help? I think it's very small amount of people, who actually doesn't want a job. Maybe some lazy ass RPG gamers. :p

But can you tell me some numbers, how much does a good health insurance cost, that cover all fees in case you to need medical services or with a 500$ "own risk" per year?

Cross the border and go check the situtation on Canada and see how they are doing, are they overwhelmed with taxes(?). No point to re-invent the wheel, it's just sometimes hard manage with the change, even if it would be for the best. Now all the money goes to insurance company's pocket and other thing that keeps sucking money in USA is the constant warfare.
 
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Ergonpandilus;1061034499But can you tell me some numbers said:
It is almost impossible to quote something like that because different people will pay different amounts for the exactly same insurance depending on where they live and who they work for.
 
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It is almost impossible to quote something like that because different people will pay different amounts for the exactly same insurance depending on where they live and who they work for.

But out of curiousity, just some numbers. How much does it cost to have insurance for a family of four for example. 100$ a month, 200$ a month, 500$ a month or how much?
 
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Good! Business makes the world go round, not laziness. A businessman should be president. Someone who is willing to take the challenge of returning to the black. Ross Perot would have been great for this country, even though he was a nutcase.

You misunderstand.

Business supports exporting jobs overseas and the tax breaks they get for doing so (higher profits and bigger bonuses!).
Business supports illegal immigration (cheap labor!).
Business supports NAFTA.

And I agree that Ross would have been great as president. I tend to vote independent because I am sick of the stalemate mess we are in because of politicians who are more interested in supporting their parties than actually getting something done.

BTW, I am a conservative but I disagree with most of what "modern" conservatives stand for.
 
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