Age of Decadence - Video Preview @ IndieRPGs

Well, I couldn't disagree more with your points, Gilliatt, but I'll spare you the 3000 word essay on why. I'll just say this - I'm glad games with this philosophy exist.

You may want to look elsewhere for games that will appeal to you. There's a lot of RPGs out there for you to choose from :)

No offense meant Fluent, but did you understand my points ?

I don't have a problem with their design philosophy (now that I understand it clearly), I even like it. I have a problem that they need to explain it on forums because it is not clear enough when you play the mercenary's path. (If it was clear, they wouldn't need to explain it so often.) A learning curve is not only about difficulty, it could be about giving enough information so the players understand what's going on.

I'm not doing this for me (I've got enough experience with the game to kill the thugs, and I don't *need* to save Vardanis so badly), I'm doing this for the future players who will come to the game without any prior knowledge.

Just out of curiosity, did you play the mercenary's path without any prior knowledge of the game, or did you play it after trying the combat demo and other types of characters ?
 
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I haven't played the game, just read about it. Based on what I've read, I think it sounds fine.

The points you made seem to indicate that you're looking for more "hand-holding" (not a diss on you or anything, but this is basically what it boils down to.) Either that, or the game simply doesn't fit your mold for what you think it *should* be.

I'm playing Gothic 2 now and I died about 5 times in the first 30 minutes. Not a single NPC told me that young wolves could kill me, or a pack of 3 goblins meant trouble for a level 1 character, you just kind of go with it and learn as you go.

AoD seems to be cut from the same cloth. Again, just going by what I've seen, not actually played, so it could be different when I play it. But it's definitely on my radar and I dig the philosophy behind it :)

Also, how long have you been gaming, Gilliatt? Are you young or old? I remember when games didn't tell you jack squat and you just explored and learned the game as you went. This is before the days of internet forums and guides and what not. I don't see a problem in that approach.

It just means we have to figure out a game like AoD as we go. :)
 
Maybe they should change the name to Age of Grimoire!! :)
 
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Maybe they should change the name to Age of Grimoire!! :)
The only difference is one will be getting released and one won't. My money is on Age of Decadence as you all know my feelings about the vaporware RPG Grimoire.

But I better be quiet as we will hear Cleve only has a few patches left.:roll:
 
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I haven't played the game, just read about it. Based on what I've read, I think it sounds fine.

The points you made seem to indicate that you're looking for more "hand-holding" (not a diss on you or anything, but this is basically what it boils down to.) Either that, or the game simply doesn't fit your mold for what you think it *should* be.

I'm playing Gothic 2 now and I died about 5 times in the first 30 minutes. Not a single NPC told me that young wolves could kill me, or a pack of 3 goblins meant trouble for a level 1 character, you just kind of go with it and learn as you go.

AoD seems to be cut from the same cloth. Again, just going by what I've seen, not actually played, so it could be different when I play it. But it's definitely on my radar and I dig the philosophy behind it :)

Also, how long have you been gaming, Gilliatt? Are you young or old? I remember when games didn't tell you jack squat and you just explored and learned the game as you went. This is before the days of internet forums and guides and what not. I don't see a problem in that approach.

It just means we have to figure out a game like AoD as we go. :)

No offense meant, but I was pretty sure you didn't play the game. That's why I asked. ;)

I explained that what I was asking for was not hand-holding, it was a better introduction to the game, its world and its philosophy.

I'm 39, and the last two RPGs I played are The Magic Candle II and Wizardry VII, so I'm certainly not your average casual player who wants to be spoonfed.

Your example about the wolves doesn't fit, because you know you will level up and be able to kill the wolves later. You know you just need to come back later or try a different strategy. The problem I have with the AoD mercenary's path is that I couldn't be sure if I was failing because I made mistakes, or because I was meant to fail no matter the strategy I used. There is a huge difference between the two.

You also fail to acknowledge that I am not criticizing the whole game, just the beginning of the mercenary's path. If the game wasn't meant for me, I would be criticizing it all, not just a small part of it. :)
 
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You're condescending. I came with an open mind (and already had a walkthrough with a loremaster). I didn't ask to be a hero, I didn't ask for the triumph of Good vs. Evil, and I didn't ask for a pat on the back. All I asked was a fair chance of success, something the game does not provide in the first quests.
I wasn't condescending. I described the overall situation with games, the hero stuff being the biggest issue. The relevant bit here is 'you can handle anything'.

So, yeah, while you aren't eager to be a hero, you take what you're told literally. If an NPC tells you to protect someone, you assume that it's an official game task. It's not. It's something another guy tells you.

Overall, you see this quest as "protect the trader" and you're upset (for the lack of a better word) that your chance to do it is very low. I see it as 'fight two thugs' quest with an optional objective to save the trader.

Similarly, there is a quest in the assassins questline in Maadoran where the guildmaster sends you to retrieve a shipment of gold (the one you steal in Teron as a thief). If you see it as a "get the gold back" quest you might be disappointed. It's possible, of course, but many aspiring assassins will fail and return empty handed, only to be yelled at by the guildmaster. We see it as a "get through the Slums to the thieves guild" quest as that's the meat of the quest. Again, the game will continue and both the guildmaster and you will have to live with your disappointments.

And this is why I believe you are being unfair, and are doing it on purpose. You are well aware that it requires some adjustments, yet you don't give the players any time or any chance to adjust.
Why should we waste time on such things? You play the game and figure out what the 'rules' are. Yes, the new player will take the quests because all the other games taught him/her that it's safe to do it. Most likely, the new player will fail to save the trader. Then he/she will discover that life goes on and it's possible to continue playing with the weight of the trader's untimely death on your consciousness.

That's the adjustment point, basically. You can either continue playing, learning something about the game, make a new character and try to save the trader (one of the rewards is a very satisfying option to kill him yourself after), or ragequit.

I understand your point, but I still think that you lure the players into a trap.
Why? It's not a quest where you're brutally murdered for the lulz. Unless you're very low on health, you can kill the thugs. It's saving the trader that's an issue here. So you fail to save him, so what? It's a tough world, people die, including those under your 'protection'.

I believe giving a second option, like "I'm listening, but I'm not sure I will like it", would give the players a better sense of role-playing by offering them options instead of forcing them into one.
The innkeeper asks if you want to make some easy money. What's not to like? Sure, we can add another option for the sake of options, all leading to the same outcome, but overall the structure is fairly straightforward.

- Want some easy money?
- Sure (flavor response)
- Here are the details of the job
- Yes/No

I accepted because it seemed to fit the character and because I taught the game would be fair to me by not making me fail twice in a row.
Would you describe the first fight as challenging?

Most likely you had a hard time fighting the very first 'enemy', probably had to reload a few times. You're wounded now, possibly close to death. You're offered a shady deal, which would most likely involve combat. What makes you think that you can easily save your own ass AND that of the trader? What were the expectations?

For a player just starting the game (i.e. a player that is not yet familiar with your game, its world and its philosophy), it's not that clear that this is risky business, and it's definitely not clear that refusing a quest might be a good way to "complete" it.
See above.

I taught you were deliberately luring us into a trap by making the acceptance of the quest more appealing then the refusal. Now, I see that it may not have been deliberate. By using dialogue options similar to the ones I suggest, you would make the refusal more appealing than it is right now, and would not give the impression that you (the developers) try to lure the players into a trap. With these options, it becomes evident that it's the NPCs that set the trap, not the developers.
Except it's not really a trap as you can kill the thugs unless you have only a few HPs left. That's where we disagree, I suppose.

You're stuck on the trader, I'm talking about the thugs.

Making it clearer that the world is dangerous and that refusing the quest is a good and valid option is not hand-holding, it's about properly introducing the players to your game, its world, and its philosophy. It's about giving them a chance to adjust.
And what's better way to do it than letting them experience it firsthand? We can add any line you want - 'Cado and his den' or add a [DANGER!!!] tag, the players will still take the quest because the other games taught them that it's safe. Telling them how dangerous it is will only whet their appetites.

Usually when a game tells you place X is dangerous and nobody has ever returned, you're thinking 'wow, it must have great loot' because you KNOW that YOU will 'clear the map' and get all that awesome loot and xp.
 
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Thanks for the reply Vince, but I think we are getting nowhere because, so far, I've tried to interpret your thoughts and was wrong, and you've tried to interpret mine, and was also wrong.

What I'll do in my next post, is try to show you how I experienced my first walkthrough as a mercenary (it is much more complex and open minded then what you seem to think), because I really want you to realize that some of the things you take for granted or obvious, are only obvious because you already know them.

In my opinion, the beginning of the mercenary's walkthrough raises too many questions and gives too few answers, and thus, ends up confusing the players instead of helping them.

This is not the appropriate time for this though. I'm going to celebrate the New Year now, and offer you my best wishes. :)
 
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Thanks for the reply Vince, but I think we are getting nowhere because, so far, I've tried to interpret your thoughts and was wrong, and you've tried to interpret mine, and was also wrong.
The joy of the internet?

What I'll do in my next post, is try to show you how I experienced my first walkthrough as a mercenary (it is much more complex and open minded then what you seem to think), because I really want you to realize that some of the things you take for granted or obvious, are only obvious because you already know them.
Looking forward.

In *my* next post, I'll describe out quest design philosophy.

This is not the appropriate time for this though. I'm going to celebrate the New Year now, and offer you my best wishes. :)
Happy New Year to you, Gilliatt, and everyone else who's reading this thread instead of celebrating. You guys are true heroes (unlike Gilliatt).

:)
 
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I hope everyone had a good time, and I wish you all a great 2015 !

Now, I'll try to explain how I experienced my first walkthrough through the demo with a mercenary. It won't be the exact experience because I don't remember everything, but I'll try to make it as close as possible. I'll start each section with a comment by Vince, just to show that what seems obvious to those who know the story or have read some spoilers, are really not that obvious to people just starting the game. Then, I will try to convey my experience by showing what came to my mind.

I'm not saying my experience is *better* than what the other players might have experienced. I'm just trying to point out some of the things that I consider problematic.

About saving Gracius
Vince: You can't save Gracius, because you are not a hero who can save everybody.
Me:
1 - Well, I couldn't save him with this character. Let's see if I can outsmart the assassin with a character with higher perception. [Doesn't work]
2 - Ok, let's try a character with a higher streetwise skill. [Doesn't work]
3 - Ok, let's try a character with higher perception AND higher streetwise. [Doesn't work]
4 - Although I can't be 100 % sure, I guess I can't save the merchant. Fair enough, let's move on.

About the assassin
Vince: The assassin is there to test your built.
Me:
1 - Oh! There is an option to let him go. It's probably there for a reason. Maybe I'll meet him again later in the game.
2 - Is my decision going to have an impact on my relations with the Merchant's Guild and the Assassin's Order ?
3 - Am I just losing an opportunity to acquire skill points if I let him go ?
4 - OK. Let's fight. [Got killed]
5 - Well, that was close. Probably just bad rolls. Let's try again. [Got killed easily]
6 - OK. Let's try a new character. [Got killed]
7 - Well, no doubt about the bad rolls this time, I missed three times in a row when he was near death. Let's try again. [Killed the assassin]
8 - OK. I know I *can* kill the assassin, but I still don't know if I *should*. Fair enough, I can't know everything, so let's continue.

About Vardanis quest
Vince: This is an optional quest, that you can decline.
Me:
1 - This looks dangerous and unethical, but my experience with the loremaster taught me that the "good" path is not always the best. On top of that, the two most obvious reasons to refuse (it's unethical and/or it sounds suicidal) are not offered in the dialogue options. This can't be a coincidence: if they deny me these logical options to refuse, it's probably to encourage me to accept. I would also be very surprised that they make me fail twice in a row in my role as a protector (since I'm playing a mercenary and that's what mercenaries do). Let's do it. [Got killed]
2 - No wonder I got killed, I only had 8 hit points left. Maybe it's a sign that I shouldn't fight the assassin. Let's try again, with a healthy character. [Got killed]
3 - Stupid me ! I created a character with a high block skill, and forgot to equip my shield. Let's try again. [Killed the thugs, didn't save Vardanis]
4 - OK. I can kill the thugs. Maybe Vardanis got unlucky rolls. Let's try again. [Same result]
5 - OK. Let's try a different strategy. [Same result]
6 - OK. Let's try another strategy. [Same result]
6 - OK. Maybe the only way to save Vardanis is to refuse the quest (he probably won't go alone, and, thus, won't get killed.) But is this a good option ? If I refuse, am I just missing a precious opportunity to acquire more skill points ? Should I continue to try to save him ?
7 - OK. I'll refuse the quest. Maybe I'll meet Vardanis later if he is still alive. Same for the assassin: I'll let him live because I might see him later.

About Feng
1 - I won't accept to kill Cassius for now. I want to gather more information, to know what's my best option.
2 - Wait ! Cassius is not at the inn ! Why is that ?
3 - Let's see if he will be there if I agree to kill him. That would be cheating. [He's there. The game can cheat.]
[Not sure what I did here. I remember that I killed Cassius once to see if the fight was easy, but I think I didn't save that game, and ended up exposing Feng.]

Subsequent quests
1 - Went to the bandit camp, tried the combat approach. [Got killed]
2 - OK. Maybe this approach doesn't work, or maybe I just tried too soon. I'll do something else, and come back later, when I have more skill points.
3 - Go the outpost. Same result, same thoughts, same decision.
4 - [Not sure what I did there. I believe I did something for the Imperial Guards, but I'm not sure.]
5 - Go back to the bandit camp. [Same result]
6 - Back to the outpost. [Same result]
7 - OK. Maybe I just need more skill points. Let's start again, and kill the assassin and the thugs.
8 - I can't kill the assassin AND the thugs. I've tried 3 times. Should I try again or is it another "impossible task" ? (I'm still not sure if it was possible to save Gracius or Vardanis, and now, I'm not sure if it's possible to kill the assassin AND the thugs. Consequently, I still have no idea if the character I built is OK or not. I've played more than a day, and got almost no real feedback from the game. Mostly questions.)
9 - Made it back to the bandit camp and got killed again. (I still have no idea if it's because I suck at combat, because I tried too early or because it's impossible to use the combat approach here.)
10 - I take time to think about the experience as a whole:
I've played the mercenary path a whole weekend, and only ended up with more questions, and few answers. I am confused, I don't know if I failed by my own fault or by design. (Should I be able to save Gracius ? Should I be able to save Vardanis ? Should I be able to kill the assassin AND the thugs [and not only the assassin OR the thugs] ?)
Since I already played a walkthrough with a loremaster, I know it's possible to talk my way out of these events, but it still raises a new question: Do they really want a mercenary to talk his way out ? Probably not. But which fights should I choose ? Which ones are impossible ?
With all these questions, and this lack of answers, I realize I almost always ask myself "What do they want me to do" instead of "What should I do".
12 - OK. Let's have a look at some forums.
13 - So I go to the forums and here is what I see (mostly):
- You're whining, you want hand-holding. [No I want feedback, to learn.]
- You don't understand because you are a casual player, not a real RPG gamer. [Would I have tried so many different options if I was ?]
- It's your fault. The game is perfect as it is. [Yep! It's much more easier to blame me.]
And here are some more detailed answers:
- You can't save Gracius because you are not a hero who can save everyone. [Fair enough, that's what I suspected. Although I was still uncertain, I could live with that uncertainty.]
- The assassin is there to test your built. It's obvious. [It's far from obvious, as I've shown. It's certainly not to those who let him walk away thinking they could meet him again later.]
- The Vardanis quest is optional, you can decline it. [I did. However, I learned nothing by declining it, and only ended up with more questions.]

Do you see where I'm going ? None of these quests are bad or wrong when taken separately. But when you add them all up, right from the start, without providing enough feedback to the players, you can easily confuse them, because they bring more questions than answers.

When players begin a game, they try to learn how to play it. In order to learn, they need clear and sufficient information. It's OK to provide questions – the game would be extremely boring if you took away all the guesswork –, but you need to realize that many of the things that look pretty obvious to you, are not that obvious. If you provide more questions than answers, you just confuse your players. That's why there is a need for a learning curve.

Suggestions
About saving Gracius
I believe you could remove a bit of the confusion by providing the adequate gear right from the start instead of letting the players visit the merchant. The more options you give to prepare, the more players are likely to think they *should* prepare in order to save Gracius.
I believe that *in your head* this is to prepare for the subsequent fights, but this is not how it is *in the game*. In the game, the mercenary says he needs better gear to do what he was assigned to do: protect Gracius. He doesn't know about the visit to Cado.

About the assassin
Since the assassin is there to test the player's built, and since there is no point in letting him go away, I strongly believe you should make the fight mandatory. It would eliminate all the questions related to the assassin, and would also eliminate many questions related to the Vardanis quest, since most players will now find it very normal that they could not do everything, and, thus, won't be tempted to ask themselves if they *should*.

About Vardanis quest
The suggestions I made in a previous post are not as stupid or as irrelevant as you may think. By giving the players the opportunity to say they find the offer unethical (I'm listening, but I'm not sure I will like it) and/or fishy (I'm not stupid enough to think I can intimidate Cado in his own den), you won't give them the illusion that you deliberately deny them these possibilities. This is not hand-holding, it's giving the players the possibility to express their thoughts and react the way they want to. If you don't let them, they might think you are trying to force them to act differently than they would like.
I also suggest that you give skill points for refusing. It will let the players know it was a valid option, that can make them progress (by earning skill points). They won't wonder if it was just a missed opportunity.

About Feng
I'll repeat what I said in a previous post: if you want this to be a "would I kill an innocent or not" question, I believe you should remove the "I'll think about it option", and offer only yes or no options. That way, if it's a "no", Feng doesn't need to say where Cassius is, and if it's a "yes", the quest goes on the way it was designed.

I don't remember the rest well enough to offer more suggestions, but I believe that the "tweaks" I propose will contribute to eliminate some early questions, and thus, reduce the possible confusion. This could be done without major changes in the quests or the events (although it will make it harder to ask a job from Cado).

With more answers and less questions, I would have learned more from the game, and I would have been able to adapt. The way it is now, I played a whole weekend and was still left in the dark, learning almost nothing. This is what bothers me. I'm not asking to be able to save Vardanis easily, I'm asking for less confusion (better feedback), to help the players familiarize themselves with the game.
 
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You are wasting your breath Gilliatt, VD just wants everyone to play on his rails. Instead of giving options he punishes players for choosing what he does not like.

When people claim this game is reactive I just laugh.
 
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When players begin a game, they try to learn how to play it. In order to learn, they need clear and sufficient information. It's OK to provide questions – the game would be extremely boring if you took away all the guesswork –, but you need to realize that many of the things that look pretty obvious to you, are not that obvious. If you provide more questions than answers, you just confuse your players. That's why there is a need for a learning curve.

Couldn't agree more.
 
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You are wasting your breath Gilliatt, VD just wants everyone to play on his rails. Instead of giving options he punishes players for choosing what he does not like.
There are plenty of options. The issue here is that some options require higher stats/skills and/or understanding.

You can save Vardanis (in the example above), but you have to be an experienced player with a combat focused build. Needless to say you aren't punished for either walking away when the thugs stop you or for failing to save Vardanis. Where is the railroading?

When people claim this game is reactive I just laugh.
Yeah, they've all got it wrong. You alone, Archangel, see the game for what it is.

PS. Gilliatt, I'll reply a bit later.
 
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Gilliatt, quick comment. I'm still reading your post as it's long :)


Trick to save vardanis is to use nets...

He has a relatively high dodge skill and this makes sure they can't hit him. You can then add to that by wounding arms....
 
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I know my post is long, but I tried to put as much details as I can remember. :) Overall, I'm happy at least 4 persons read it. ;)

@ VD and Pladio, take all the time you need to reply. However, I don't see why it's long to reply "You're right Gilliatt". :biggrin:

@ Pladio : I tried the nets but either I missed or either it seemed to do nothing since the thugs were still able to fight normaly. Didn't think of wounding the arms though. However, my point still stands: you need experience with the game before you even have the chance to acquire that experience. Also, you can't save during the vignettes and need to redo all the assassin part just to retry the thugs. This makes the process much longer than needed. Anyway, I don't really care if I can't save Vardanis, I just want things to be clearer in the beginning (more answers, less questions).
 
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In my mind your last two posts have explained your mindset much better than before and have also been more constructive ...

I understand your point of view now and it makes sense.

I do not agree with everything but you may be right that new players would be lost from the start as combat in this game is unforgivable.

I enjoy reading forums and watching videos to improve myself so I don't mind it the way it is. But I'm sure many do.

I would suggest Vince takes your suggestions seriously, but whether he should change things is up to him I guess.

I understand he does not want to compromise his "vision" of the game too much as he's worked for 10 years on it now or so.

I've suggested several things on the forums he did not seem to like.

But I don't mind.

I'm happy to see someone making a very different type of game.

It's unlikely well see a game like this again soon so...

Well those are my 2 cents :)
 
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Different does not mean it is good. It is just different. Just like a TV show I watched about group of people that gather from all over the US and drink blood and pretend they are Vampires. They are different as well…

There are plenty of options. The issue here is that some options require higher stats/skills and/or understanding.

You can save Vardanis (in the example above), but you have to be an experienced player with a combat focused build. Needless to say you aren't punished for either walking away when the thugs stop you or for failing to save Vardanis. Where is the railroading?
You are punished for roleplaying a character that is not to your liking.
Yeah, they've all got it wrong. You alone, Archangel, see the game for what it is.
Oh I am not alone. I represent every cRPG fan that will not be buying your game because of your "different" design decisions.

And then we have the general gaming public that will not be touching it with a 10 foot pole.
 
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I understand your point of view now and it makes sense.

It's about time! (Just kidding. :biggrin:)

It's easier for me to be more constructive now that I have a better understanding of what Vince and co. are trying to do.

I don't expect you or him to agree with everything I said (I don't even expect everything I said to be right). We're dicussing, we're not trying to pretend we know everything.

I also understand that Vince has every right to be stubborn: nobody has put as much effort in AoD as he did. However, I strongly believe some things need a little tweaking, and I hope he understands that I'm not asking for a game that is tailor-made for me, I'm only trying to help.
 
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