Fluent Vents about the state of the gaming industry! (Pillars of Eternity related)

D

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SO,

After reading the patch notes of patch 1.03 from Obsidian for Pillars of Eternity, my blood began to boil and the frustration set in. Why? Well, for one, it made me realize that games are no longer finished on their so-called "release dates". You know, that date when a game is supposed to be complete? Ha! Yeah, right.

Instead, companies seem to be happy to release a game with a ton of bugs, balance issues galore and completely unfinished. The worst and funniest part (in a sick, sad sort of way), is that gamers seem completely fine to accept this practice!

Sure, we'll buy unfinished games! Sure, we'll let them continue to tweak balance and core game attributes days, weeks, months after the game was SUPPOSED TO BE FINISHED! Gamers are completely fine to accept this and don't seem bothered at all.

I am extremely, extremely upset and frustrated by Obsidian's practices. First of all, the manual and strategy guide are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS now. There are errors galore, and that is simply unacceptable to me. I will be asking for a refund for the strategy guide and I would be extremely upset if I were a paid backer who wanted a nice, accurate manual and got something that they might as well burn because it's useless now.

So, Obsidian merrily chugs along and continues to tweak the balance, change this, change that, and everyone who bought the game on release is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DISRESPECTED during this process.

It is unacceptable that these tweaks, bug fixes and issues weren't ironed out before release. How dare they charge money for a game that is clearly unfinished!

And I'm not just blaming Obsidian. All companies do this now, and it's an atrocity against gamers. You all think you're getting this great deal with free patches! Free upgrades! Yeah, right. To that end you may get a game that is considered "complete" 2 years later. It's madness!

I'm just pissed at how the game industry is turning out nowadays. Sure, patch your bugs. Fix the bugs before release, but if you can't iron them all out, patch them as you go. But balance tweaks, changes to the core game elements, forget that, man. Save all the constant, weekly patch crap and release an "Enhanced Edition" a few months or a year down the line. The bottom line is - AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TO COMPLETE YOUR GAME AND CALL IT FINISHED. This constant tweaking of balance and core game elements is nonsense. It's like putting your game on constant life support. Pull the plug and move on!

So frustrating, man. I just really had to vent. I know, I know, go outside, get some fresh air, etc. But when you have a deep passion for RPG gaming and this is how we're treated as customers, it's appalling to me and worth fighting for.

P.S. My question to Obsidian. Are you going to release an upgraded manual with all the new tweaks and information you've changed? How about a new strategy guide, too? I already know the answer, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

And Divinity: Original Sin, your practices are hilarious as well because you're adding this and adding that months later. Why not put that effort into a new game? Yet another game we all have to patiently wait for to have this "extra content!!" that probably should have been in the game from the start. When will new players feel comfortable playing it? A year from it's "release date"? (Again - release date used to mean a game was finished.)

It seems that instead of having long development cycles now, we have short ones, and then all that extra time post-release is spent in "patch limbo" waiting for this tweak, that fix, this "upgrade", this feature that should have already been in, etc. It's ridiculous!

I'm sure many of you won't agree with me, but I had to post this somewhere to vent. Thank you for reading. Ciao!
 
Ah, you obviously didn't buy Dungeon Lords!! :) I won't mention Daggerfall either!! :D
 
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Or Gothic 3? :lol:

Publisher to blame in that case. It's important to make the distinction I think but then I have an irrational love for G3 so ignore me :)

Anyway on your rant. I think we, as gamers, have to make a judgement call here in specific cases. Do you think the developer knew these bugs existed on release. With something like say Ass Creed Unity it's impossible to imagine any scenario where they couldn't have known how bad things were. With PoE I lean towards them not being aware but who can be certain. Like I say judgement call.

I completely agree with you on the core game changes after release and I was very disappointed with Larian for the additions after the fact. I kinda forgive them but in the end on release day we weren't playing the game they ultimately intended for us. In general if a developer tells me that they plan to add stuff over the months after release that will change the game in fundamental ways then fine I know where I stand and I can choose to wait. Maybe if they were a bit more up front about it.

Are we too easy on all these developers producing the games we want to play? Maybe but the upshot for me is I can forgive most of these things simply because we might not have had any of it whatsoever. Lesson learned for me though. As soon as I heard of the major bugs in PoE I just stopped playing and I will probably wait a while for every new game from now on (except Witcher 3 - will not be able to resist that). I can wait. Back to Avernum 6 for now :)
 
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Well said, Brian! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :) :party:

All I ask, is that a game is released in a state that is ready to be played. If you're not ready to release, either set the date at a realistic time when you feel the game will be 100% complete, or do an Early Access release or whatever instead. I hate being in this patch limbo purgatory post-release, waiting on the next patch, tweak, bugfix to make my game feel complete (only to be completely changed in the next patch!). :D
 
As the saying goes, for me you are preaching to the choir. I usually wait 1 to 2 years after release before I buy a game. By then they are patched, less expensive, GOTY/Director's editions include DLC, and established mods rise like cream to the top.
 
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I didn't know they were changing rulesets and mechanics. That's effed up. :raincloud:

And on D:OS…Swen did admit that they were having issues "letting go", as it were. They said they could keep ironing out bugs and making little changes forever but there comes a time when they have to release it and let go. Clearly, if what you're saying is right, they're not doing that.

But about PoE…if they're changing the inner workings of the game, do you think that might be partly the backers' fault? What you say is true…we've come to be a complacent audience that simply takes mostly-finished games as a matter of course, letting the devs fix a lot after release. But I think with Early Access and Kickstarter, we're also seeing an increasingly entitled, angry…I hate to say it, but whiney audience that demands everything go their way. PoE certainly got this. Most games have their entitled whiners, and I remember Guild Wars 2 being terrible about this…"Waaah! Rogues do too much damage!"

So…an audience that accepts unfinished games…but also an entitled audience that cries till it can make the developers change stats and rulesets. Who's at fault? I honestly have no idea. But there's clearly a problem.

TL;DR: Did Obsidian start changing rules and numbers because whiners told them to?
 
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As the saying goes, for me you are preaching to the choir. I usually wait 1 to 2 years after release before I buy a game. By then they are patched, less expensive, GOTY/Director's editions include DLC, and established mods rise like cream to the top.

Same for me. Apart a few games I funded on Kickstarter or Indigogo, I always wait at least a year before I buy a game.
 
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I'd rather have a world with a 95% finished PoE than no PoE.

Also, I think it is worth considering that Obsidian put a lot of sweat and blood and tears into their game. They are not trying to fool customers into buying a broken game. You don't need to feel as if they are disrespecting you. I'm sure they have made an earnest effort to provide the product that they promised while still having money left over to buy themselves food and housing.
 
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They should package the bug fixes separately from the mechanical changes into two different patches. Then you can get a fixed game and have the choice if you want to update the mechanics or not.
 
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Back in the day, before mainstream internet, developers had to finish their games because there was no easy way to get patches to people.

Then with internet we started getting patches and BETA tests became so popular they replaced the traditional Demo versions showed how much people want to play unfinished games and now its evolved into horrible "Early Access" where games like DayZ or Godus can litterally never be finished and no one can complain!

With games like Star Citizen going to be 100GB download and each patch bigger than a DVD it's starting to look like we really need to get back to the old ways of properly finishing games! I can imagine coming home and having a few hours to get in some gaming time then half of its gone waiting for an 8gig patch. :S

PS. I'm kinda surprised to see you this upset after watching your video where you pretty much said "its the best game ever!" for 20 minutes. :p The emotions are strong with thee!
 
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The problem is that games have gotten bigger and as a result testing them for every outcome is impossible without spending a lot of money to do it. If it is that big of a deal to you wait till the price drops and get it later.
 
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I didn't know they were changing rulesets and mechanics. That's effed up. :raincloud:
*SNIP*
TL;DR: Did Obsidian start changing rules and numbers because whiners told them to?

I just read the patch notes and there didn't seem to be any major changes to the core mechanics, just minor tweaks to some spells and abilities. One welcome change I saw was they are increasing the range of some wizard spells. Now when the patch hits maybe I can use my wizards more like proper artillery instead of having them need to practically move to the front line to fire magic miss…I mean Minoletta’s Minor Missiles. :)

Miiiiiighty Wizaaaaaaaaard! \m/
 
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The reality of developing software that's as complex as games tend to be - is that it's practically impossible to test every possible game state without a small country all dedicated to testing 24/7 for years.

It's not about the industry having changed - as bugs were just as common and often much more devastating in the past. But games were also much simpler and we didn't get saturated in bug reports from thousands of players - meaning we simply didn't know about these bugs in many cases with our favorite games. Many of us were also too young to really detect them all.

I understand the frustration, especially when you're personally invested in a game on this level.

Nothing is worse than experiencing a bug that prevents you from progressing when you're totally absorbed, even if it's just a matter of waiting a few days or weeks.

I know a lot of people don't have the experience to understand that, yes, it really is all but impossible to release a game like this without significant bugs. But it's true. Even Blizzard - a company with nearly infinite resources - that often spends an extra 6 months to a full year JUST for polish and bug-fixing, can't release a game without some serious issues.

If you want to put them out of business instead, then you should all wait at least 6 months before investing - as that's around the time it takes to get enough feedback from enough people, to eradicate the worst bugs.

But you can never have a game like PoE without bugs - not even years after release.

That's just the way it is, and I don't see it changing. Certainly not as long as money is the limiting factor.
 
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We're getting a fix this week. I still remember an excellent old game 'Wake of the Ravager' had a totally gamestopping bug which required a floppy disk patch since there was no internet. I had to write or call them (long distance from Oz) and then wait for them to mail me out the disk. I do believe things have improved slightly!! :)
 
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The trick is simple and already mentioned, just wait for the game to be fully polished and patched up before diving in. I for one, still have not played Divinity: OS or Wasteland 2, because they are both supposed to get major upgrades later this year. Yes, I have insane patience, I didn't get around to trying Morrowind until around 2010 or so, but I'm also super picky about what games I play.

I'm not an obsessive PC gamer who is always playing or needs to be playing a new game every week. I have many other interests such as board games ("Euro games" — sophisticated strategy games made for adults) as well as reading, and doing outdoorsy stuff like going bike riding or going hiking in the wilderness in the Summer, many other interests. So I know my way is not going to be the way of many hard core gamers, who buy games the day they come out (or earlier) and play the crap out of them over a weekend, playing them hours on end, until they finish.
 
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Have to agree with SirJames.

I think you should lean back a bit and try to be more objective and realistic overall instead of all emotional.

I totally agree though that they should have waited to release PoE. Looking at the patch notes and the number of bugs I encountered it just feels stupid that they didn't wait a week longer to avoid having all these problems in the release version.
That said, Obsidian is known for releasing games in an unfinished state and this was to be expected. I remember Fallout New Vegas and I will give you short descriptions about the patches from the Wiki:
October 19: US Release
October 20: First Patch Resolves around 200+ quest and scripting issues.
October 21: Second Patch fixes the auto and quick save bugs introduced by Steam Cloud. (yes, you can actually save your game now without breaking it)
October 21: EU Release (which was still buggy as hell)

Regarding the balance: I don't see any drastical balance changes in the notes. A few things get minor buffs and nerfs but overall not a lot will change. But this is something I rather understand. Of course they shouldn't do major changes like what the attributes are doing or something similar. But I am perfectly fine if they buff up some stuff which is obviously useless in the current game, or nerf something which is totally overpowered.
And in the end this is still a role playing game.
I was actually more pissed about the heavy changes they did in the first Xenonauts (thats the spiritual XCOM Successor) patches where they changed the whole meta-balancing by adjusting the prices even though they clearly stated that they won't do that after release.
Also the situation with Divinity:OS where they only had 2 companions at release was pretty bad in this regards. This immensively limited your choices. And having these additional options could change the gameplay drastically.
Wasteland 2? Supposedly gets a patch now which completely overhauls the combat (which is really necessary but should have been there at release already)

So overall I am pretty fine with the situation in that regards.

As mentioned before: Chill. Don't overhype and then overreact.
 
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It's actually rare that you get retroactive fixes like they've managed to accomplish with the stat bug and ability bug. Most high-profile companies tend to come up with "we just couldn't do it" - which is not always convincing.

Considering this is Obsidian - and we're likely to see the patch coming very soon, I struggle to entertain the notion of being frustrated. The black screen bug sounds unfortunate, but it doesn't seem to be as common - so it might take longer to fix. Playing huge RPGs on release day is always a significant risk. It helps if you know that, going in. Since you've been playing a review copy - you should have been even more prepared for early issues. Hard to imagine anyone with experience being surprised about this.

Then again, I prefer the rational approach over the overly emotional one :)

Feeling disrespected because they're trying to balance the game based on much, much better feedback than they got from the tiny selection of pre-release testers is, frankly, not rational.

It doesn't help when half the testers have been fan backers that are dedicated to seeing no issues - because of the emotional investment. Just another example of how deluding yourself is actually destructive to us all, including the developers. Being rational and critical, however, is highly useful if we want the best product.

They're not being "corrupt" and they're not part of some evil corporate conspiracy that's out to ruin their games for the players.

They're struggling to fix the game and make it a fair challenge. Your concept of calling a game finished at some point is valid, though, but it shouldn't be just after release - when obvious issues are pouring in, and can be fixed within a reasonable time frame. That would be stupid - and I'm glad they're not reacting to entitled whiners and doing the right thing instead. Then again, they have more experience with bugs than most developers :)

But they're not magicians and they don't have infinite resources - and they had to release it.
 
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You guys are sometimes too extreme for me, first this game is the best game since the birth of Jesus, and then it is suddenly a bug ridden game.

Both things are not true.

It is a good big (and complex) classic RPG developed by a relative small team.
A few bugs can't be avoided - even with a much bigger quality assurance team - look at Skyrim for example.
As a programmer I have to say, some of the game mechanics/rules could have been designed somewhat simpler. A few game mechanics are just over-designed.
That would have three effects:

a) the rules are easier to understand for players
b) they are easier to implement
c) they are easier to test and some bugs could have been avoided

Always work with the KISS principle:

Keep IT Smart and Simple

The best games can create complex interesting situations with a few simple rules.
 
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I struggle to entertain the notion of being frustrated.

THIS.

Sure it is annoying that there are bugs ... which is true of EVERY GAME EVER RELEASED. Period. Maybe some games played better for you, maybe worse.

Again I go back to the 'classics' of our genre and really you just have to quickly think and realize how many little 'quirks' there were and how long they took to patch. Think 'Gothic 2', one of my absolute faves. There was a attribute stacking bug with rings where you could get the bonus again and again by equipping and unequipping - and it took THREE YEARS before it was fixed.

No software of any significance is released without there being some amount of bugs in it that the developer knows about but chooses to deal with in a patch. None.
 
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