Mass Effect 2 - Producer Thinks: Dev's "Pamper" Gamers

JDR13 said:

I have to agree that devs in general are implementing far too much hand-holding in todays games. I enjoyed playing Risen and Dragon Age this past month because they were exceptions to that rule.

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Apparently Demon Souls for PS3 is also brutally hard. Nice option

BillSeurer said:

Yet I bet you all didn't start over when you failed, eh? Save anywhere is there to coddle you.

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I really liked Dark Forces in that way - forced you all the way through a level ...

skavenhorde said:

Like with my mother, she loves games like Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Old Republic, and even Fallout, but she can't keep up with the constant grind that comes with a harder difficulty level. Even simple battles with simple monsters over and over again becomes too frustrating. She wants to get into the mechanics of the game, like figuring out how to take a lich down in Baldur's Gate 2. Not to mention the story itself and interaction with the NPCs.

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My father wouldn't be able to figure out how to get past the title screen. :lol:

Mass Effect was a text-book example of cakewalk? I must really suck at games, then. I thought some parts were pretty frustrating. I also like the mechanic where your team mates get up after a fight. It makes for some hectic battles where two of your team are down and you've almost beaten the enemy but are now on your own. What would you prefer? Having to revert to a save game? Dragging their dead bodies to a healer afterwards? Stacking up resurrection pills for after each battles? Seems to only increase the boring parts to me.

I like some games for the story, you know, the interactive movie thing someone mentioned. I sometimes like that better than a movie, and the gameplay doesn't *have* to be a total bore. I don't know, I think I'm done with really difficult games. I haven't really dug into a game and stuck with it for ages. There's a backlog of games I want to wade through and once I'm done with it, I'm done with it. I don't want to spend a year on a game, learning all its tricks.

On the other hand, when well done, a difficult game can still be extremely entertaining. Just cut the frustration out of my game, please!

JDR13 said:

My father wouldn't be able to figure out how to get past the title screen. :lol:

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Well she was the one that got me hooked on PC games in the first place She brought back that brand spanking new C64 and then later an IBM compatible with EGA graphics. We both got hooked on Ultima 3 and 4 on the C64 and then 5 and 6 on Dos. So she is probably able to get a little farther past the title screen

I remember one Christmas she hunted down an elusive copy of Ultima 1 (This was when we just finished Ultima 4) I nearly jumped for nerd joy when I got it. Best Christmas present ever.

To this day I haven't a clue as to how she got that game. The oldest Ultima game at stores like Best or Egghead was Ultima 2. Amazing what people could do before the Amazon.com days.

You can't really have a difficult and challenging game without some frustration, as that's the price you pay for that particular approach. It's impossible to create the ideal difficulty level so that everyone in the audience will feel challenged appropriately but not so much that they're frustrated.

I think you have to choose, and I think a challenge is worth a measure of frustration. To put it another way, I'd rather have a challenge with some frustration than no challenge and no frustration.

skavenhorde said:

Like with my mother, she loves games like Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Old Republic, and even Fallout, but she can't keep up with the constant grind that comes with a harder difficulty level. Even simple battles with simple monsters over and over again becomes too frustrating. She wants to get into the mechanics of the game, like figuring out how to take a lich down in Baldur's Gate 2. Not to mention the story itself and interaction with the NPCs.

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I can wholeheartedly understand this, if it means : She wants to play the story, not the fights.

Imho too often the story is developed so that it makes fights an neccessity. Sometimes the story evolves aroud nothing but fights. Sometimes the story is even so thin that the whole game consists of nothing but fights.

The interesting point will be when someone actually manages to develop a story ... well, that just isn't an excuse to (forcefully) implement lots of fights into the game.

The shism will come when the question is answered : Will this be a war game, or a story-game ? Or ... another kind of game, maynbe ? A game of social interaction like what we see right now with the SIMs ?

Then, I guess, there'll be a shism between RPGs : combat-oriented RPGs and story-oriented RPGs.

In a way we already have such a shism : Action RPGs vs. the rest ...

Remember that RPGs, both computerized and others, started out with fighting as the *only* sort of *rules* supported interaction. Everything else was winging it between the guy running the game and players which meant the cRPGs had basically none or only trivial ones. Some more recent paper RPGs have more rules for non-combat interaction but are still pretty heavy on the combat stuff. cRPGs are and for the foreseeable future will be inherently extremely limited in non-combat interactions because of their total lack of flexibility.

Yes, I do know this, but I also sense some kind of evolution.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

I can wholeheartedly understand this, if it means : She wants to play the story, not the fights.

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Yes and No. What she can't stand is the grinding part of the battles. You know the little guys you have to keep killing in order to get anywhere. She likes the fighting though, just not constant stream of it and not that she will get wiped out by a small band of orcs. for the 15th time. She can't keep up with us Gen Xers But she does like the battles, she just want's to be able to win the battles.

What she and I really like is understanding the game, figuring out what makes it tick and how to beat it. Not in a cheeting sense, but like with the Liches in Baldur's gate 2. They were a pain to take down. She and I loved this part of the game. What right combos of magic would it take to hurt and kill the lich. After awhile she figured it out (after man reloads). Then like you said the story part of the game also wasn't too bad.

In any event, I'm not that way. I don't mind making a lowly minion a tough battle. I might have to reload more than a few times, but each time I try something different.

Anyways, for now I believe a good difficulty system is the way to go for a game trying to appeal to people like my mother and myself. I can pump up the difficulty and she can tone it down. Not exactly a win win, but for now it looks like the best solution to trying to please as many different types of gamers as possible.