PoE Kickstarter and funding Pillars of Eternity

Pillars of Eternity

luj1

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Alright I wanted to raise a couple of questions regarding KS-driven budgets and funding video games in general. I'll try to keep this simple.

I like KS in a sense that it abolishes the need for a publisher in a conventional manner and goes straight to the fans. What I don't like is the increasingly popular stretch goal approach and how it can manipulate gamers.

I'm taking this straight from the Project Eternity KS page.

1.1 million, Base Goal – Achieved!
Base game includes three races, five classes, and five companions.

I mean, really? That's pretty thin. At the time it didn't sit right with me. What the hell is a "base game" anyway?

So basically, what they're saying is, if you want a normal RPG with a standard amount of content we'll need more money. Now I may be alone in my impression but that sounds like blackmail. Stretch goals as an approach emerged from the crowd-funding community. I just don't think it's good for our games, as it is inherently limiting.

As a final note I'd like to remind everybody that Wasteland 2 KS pitch didn't have stretch goals (!). I also happen to rate Wasteland 2 a notch above Pillars of Eternity, but that's just my opinion.

Moving onto another issue concerning budgets…

Let me get this straight. I think 4$ million is enough to produce a long-lasting RPG classic for a Windows PC. But usually when I open this argument with somebody I instantly get the 4$ million isn't a whole lot, or Obsidian doesn't have the budget big AAA publishers do response.

There are video game budgets as high as 200$ or 300$ million, so what. Most of the time those AAA titles are trash anyway (CD Projekt RED being somewhat an exception here). Also has to do with over-focusing resources into graphical presentation but w/e. Superior video game products have been made 15 or 20 years ago, with low funds, a laughable staff count, and faulty game engines. Obviously not superior in a technical sense, but rather in regard to substance. If you're guided by passion 4$ million is a lot. Otherwise, even 500$ million won't do you good.

So they did it decades ago, why can't they do it today? Because most aren't motivated by the same things as before. People get older. But wait. What about Legend of Grimrock? Four guys in a basement did that. Furthermore their game boasts killer graphics. They also raised enough money to produce a sequel which expanded on each and every aspect of the first game. So obviously it can be done.

Looking forward to your thoughts and opinions.
 
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Well, just to play devil's advocate: making story-driven RPGs within a large, non-linear game world takes a lot more time and effort than a dungeon-crawler, regardless of graphics. I want to make it clear that I enjoyed Legend of Grimrock. But LoG was also a paper-thin RPG. There was virtually no story, dialogue, or choice in the game, and it was also a very linear experience within a very simple and controlled environment.

The type of game that LoG is cannot be fairly compared to a project like PoE because PoE is a much larger game world with a lot more complicated systems and many hours of story-driven content. LoG, while a good game, is a very simplistic experience that revolves around a very small and simple scope. The same 4 people who created LoG could never make a game with a comparable scope to PoE.

So I think you are vastly underestimating how difficult it is to make a sweeping epic of an RPG, and how much resources such a game requires. LoG was made possible by a small team because of how small and simplistic the design was, which pales in comparison to the scope of a fleshed-out RPG.
 
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If you're guided by passion 4$ million is a lot.

Lol. Sure, maybe if you're in your mother's basement with no real world expenses to deal with such as a lease, payroll, and licensing.
 
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Well, just to play devil's advocate: making story-driven RPGs within a large, non-linear game world takes a lot more time and effort than a dungeon-crawler, regardless of graphics. I want to make it clear that I enjoyed Legend of Grimrock. But LoG was also a paper-thin RPG. There was virtually no story, dialogue, or choice in the game, and it was also a very linear experience within a very simple and controlled environment.

The type of game that LoG is cannot be fairly compared to a project like PoE because PoE is a much larger game world with a lot more complicated systems and many hours of story-driven content. LoG, while a good game, is a very simplistic experience that revolves around a very small and simple scope. The same 4 people who created LoG could never make a game with a comparable scope to PoE.

So I think you are vastly underestimating how difficult it is to make a sweeping epic of an RPG, and how much resources such a game requires. LoG was made possible by a small team because of how small and simplistic the design was, which pales in comparison to the scope of a fleshed-out RPG.


Sure I'll agree with you. However despite story-driven RPGs within a large, non-linear game world taking a lot more time and effort than a dungeon-crawler, these have been done years and years ago. Many times. To great success. Are those technically inferior? Sure. Are they superior in substance? Yes. Which is more important? I think we all know.

Pillars of Eternity just doesn't stand up to BG2, PS:T, Arcanum. I'd also like to hear your take on the stretch goal practice. Cheers.
 
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Lol. Sure, maybe if you're in your mother's basement with no real world expenses to deal with such as a lease, payroll, and licensing.

So ten to twenty years ago there weren't any "real expenses to deal with"? Come on.
 
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4 million while sounds huge isn't nearly enough to make RPG of an epic scale.
A studio full of talents can work with that sum, yes, but you'll get a good or great game, don't expect miracles or a masterpiece.

If Eternity got not 4 but 40 millions, I bet we'd see a game of a century there.
Sadly, as it happens, such big sums are invested only on trashmobrespawners as developers that make such games have no imagination thus rely on fancy eyecandy mocap graphics and arcadey movement/combat.

In another words, so far, big cash went only to a type of games where you do this over and over, but hell, it's perfectly animated so it's fun, right?

banging-head.gif


My the most boring aunt in the world is more fun than that crap.
I can only hope that Star Citizen will have rich different content, and not be remembered as another grinder made only for graphics whores.
 
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But LoG was also a paper-thin RPG. There was virtually no story, dialogue, or choice in the game, and it was also a very linear experience within a very simple and controlled environment.

The type of game that LoG is cannot be fairly compared to a project like PoE because PoE is a much larger game world with a lot more complicated systems and many hours of story-driven content. LoG, while a good game, is a very simplistic experience that revolves around a very small and simple scope. The same 4 people who created LoG could never make a game with a comparable scope to PoE.

I don't agree that LoG was "paper thin". I think you're better off trying to claim that real-time blobbers in general are thin. LoG succeeded at what it was.

As far as that development team not being able to make a game like PoE, that's simply stating the obvious. A construction team put together to build a house couldn't build a skyscraper by themselves.

I think he was just trying to say that what they did with 4 people and 50k might be more impressive to some people than what Obsidian did with 80X that amount.
 
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If Eternity got not 4 but 40 millions, I bet we'd see a game of a century there.

Eh, can't say I agree. I reckon what we'd see would be even more disappointing. Pillars of Eternity , as it stands now, is just - mildly disappointing.
 
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More than often a games' real substance is disproportionate to its budget and resources involved. People working in modest conditions produce better games than AAA developers.
 
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So ten to twenty years ago there weren't any "real expenses to deal with"? Come on.

Of course there were expenses back then but they cost a fraction of what they do now.

So out of the 4 mil, do they get to turn a profit? You know make some money?

Or do they need to live paycheck to paycheck so they can make us games with passion.

I agree with one thing you said. I don't like stretch goals. They just add to development time and usually are not something I care about.

There's also the problem of having to meet the goal. If they think they can make a great RPG for 4 mil but don't think they can get that much then they need to scale it back and ask for 1 mil then add the stuff back in through stretch goals.

Why do people have such a problem with devs making money or even getting rich off of making games? All I ever hear is " i d buy the game if it were cheaper", " there milking", " exploiting us with dlc", " there greedy", " cut content" and on and on.

Man, just let them make some money already with out vilifying them for it.
 
Of course there were expenses back then but they cost a fraction of what they do now…

That's a big question. It depends on whether people earn less than they used to, or more.

Man, just let them make some money already with out vilifying them for it.

Good no one here is doing that. I don't have a problem with developers getting rich off making video games, at all. They are free to do that. However I'll always argue that video games ought to be a matter of art primarily, making profit a by-product. If you want to make profit there are far more efficient venues out there. Getting rich off art is approvable with me only as a secondary effect. And with Pillars of Eternity we have a case where it's slightly more than that, apparently.
 
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That's a big question. It depends on whether people earn less than they used to, or more.



Good no one here is doing that. I don't have a problem with developers getting rich off making video games, at all. They are free to do that. However I'll always argue that video games ought to be a matter of art primarily, making profit a by-product. If you want to make profit there are far more efficient venues out there. Getting rich off art is approvable with me only as a secondary effect. And with Pillars of Eternity we have a case where it's slightly more than that, apparently.

Ok, but I didn't get that vibe from your original post. I still don't agree however. Maybe if they were painting a picture I would agree, but they are making something that requires a good deal of money and or know how.

Kickstarter is a great example. You have many creative artistic people who can't make it without money and some even fail after they get the money due to mismanaging it.

Without the money to produce it the "art" doesn't matter. Profit needs to be the first priority, but don't confuse that with profit at all costs.A strong stable company with resources to bear brings the ability to focus on the art without publisher, investors or kickstarters influencing your decisions.
 
My problem with stretch goals is when they include things like 'multi platform'. To me that's detrimental for the game. For the 2% that'll play the game in a tablet, or in a Mac, or in a console, they'll have to invest a lot of effort into expanding to other platforms. Even worse if the game is to be released the same day for all platforms, as that will only delay the game at least a year.

But stretch goals to increase the game, like extra classes and races? that's ok with me.
 
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Being that I'm playing PoE on a Mac, I'm quite happy with platform stretch goals. I also don't really mind content stretch goals. What I greatly dislike is the user created content (that has been brought up in another thread though).

EDIT: And I don't think multi-platform is a very big deal these days. Unity, I think, provides a great deal of platform flexibility.
 
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… Maybe if they were painting a picture I would agree, but they are making something that requires a good deal of money and know-how…

Sure it's not the same as painting. Or drawing. It does require a fair deal of money.
But don't tell me RPG classics - that are better than Pillars of Eternity anyway - had 4$ million budgets ,of other people's money, up front. Or modern engines. They had to develop their own, faulty ones.

The point is, producing video games back in the day used to be a potentially new art form. And it was highly under-developed. In modern times it evolved - or rather, devolved, despite the huge technical improvements - into a full-fledged, profit-driven industry.

… Without the money to produce it, the "art" doesn't matter…

That really depends on your motivation and the goal you want to achieve. If you're guided by love and passion, art will always matter and you'll find a way eventually. That's why many indie games hold universal praise. While most AAA titles are forgettable lest I use the term trash.

… Profit needs to be the first priority, but don't confuse that with profit at all costs…

Ugh, can't really agree here. Furthermore, if profit is the priority then everything else is subject to it. You might want to word that better, no enmity intended.
 
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Pillars of Eternity , as it stands now, is just - mildly disappointing.

It feels very much like you are starting from this premise and then working backwards to find the faults in the project. The first thing you go after is the original objective of their campaign

"1.1 million, Base Goal – Achieved!
Base game includes three races, five classes, and five companions."

No, I have to say that it is not pretty thin. Maybe 'base' was a poor word choice and they should have said 'core' instead? I think what they did is look at how many resources they had to devote to the game and calculated how many quality classes and races they would be able to fully flesh out. If the game were nothing more than humans, elfs and dwarves with 5 classes I think it would still be a full and complete game that provided an immersive, robust experience. They added additional races, classes and companions and built out the lore quite a bit and I find it to be a very immersive experience in which I can really role play the character I created.

I do think that in this case some of the stretch goals really added to the game. I like the additional races and factions and the stronghold. They add to the game and increase my enjoyment. That said, I still think the game would work without them.

I guess in the end I'm more confused by your post than anything. You say you are looking for passion and are disappointed with how this game turned out. I'm sorry the experience didn't work out for you, but I walked away from this kickstarter experience with a different perspective. I feel that Obsidian is passionate about their games. They're a mid size studio with a love for RPGs and world building and they saw a gap in the market that they were well placed and eager to step into. I was able to contribute to the effort in a small way and now I am enjoying what I feel is a great game.
 
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… No, I have to say that it is not pretty thin. Maybe 'base' was a poor word choice and they should have said 'core' instead?…

A "core game" doesn't really mean anything, either. It only makes sense within the fan-manipulating framework of a stretch-goal approach.

… I think what they did is look at how many resources they had to devote to the game and calculated how many quality classes and races they would be able to fully flesh out…

Quality classes and races? Firstly, there's a tangible efficiency gap - lest I use the word imbalance - between classes (and to a lesser degree between races). Something that's worth mentioning, despite their viability on normal setting i.e. finishing the game. I can elaborate ton his further if you'd desire it. Secondly, while I did get some class-specific dialogue, race-related reactivity is very, very low.

… If the game were nothing more than humans, elfs and dwarves with 5 classes I think it would still be a full and complete game that provided an immersive, robust experience….

Then I'd say your RPG standard is lower than mine, at least. Forgive me for being so blunt, but I'm just being honest here. Had what you say been true, I'd be mighty pissed.

… I guess in the end I'm more confused by your post than anything. You say you are looking for passion and are disappointed with how this game turned out…

Don't be confused. I did say *slightly* disappointed, mind you :p. The game is pretty cool. Just not outstanding. It's a fairly good spiritual successor. I just expected more depth. However a properly done expansion pack could make Pillars of Eternity a long-lasting classic that it should've been at the first place.
 
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I think it's important to remember that when you say small title X is better than AAA game Y - it's your opinion, not the opinion of all the people who buy copies of these games.

Even a critically acclaimed game doesn't represent a user acclaimed game, necessarily.

So, while old-school fans have been dying for a game like PoE - and RPG kickstarters are in favor with the critics (it's almost like a trend) - it doesn't make it better than whatever Assassin's Creed or GTA you care to pick.

Those games are going for a different kind of experience, and such an experience actually DEMANDS a certain level of content density and asset quality. There's really no way around it.

But I, for one, am happy we're seeing all kinds of games - both cheap and expensive. I wouldn't want to play the same old games the rest of my life.

Personally, I think the best games are, generally, bigger budget games - they're just extremely rare.

Games like Deus Ex: HR, The Witcher 2, Last of Us, Bioshock Infinite, and so on - are definitely "better" than a safe fan-service game like PoE. To me, that is.

It's nice that it's cheap and I'm happy it's a hit, but it's also a relatively safe hit.

The other games are anything but safe when it comes to the budgets involved. I'm pretty sure there was a lot more tension and sweat involved with developing Bioshock Infinite or The Witcher 2, than a crowd-funded game like PoE - which doesn't depend on sales quite as much, and which targets a much more established audience with fewer risks involved.

So, I'd probably cut the big budget titles some slack here.
 
Being that I'm playing PoE on a Mac, I'm quite happy with platform stretch goals. I also don't really mind content stretch goals. What I greatly dislike is the user created content (that has been brought up in another thread though).

EDIT: And I don't think multi-platform is a very big deal these days. Unity, I think, provides a great deal of platform flexibility.

From the many KS projects I've backed, I've read updates from at least two different games that have been delayed in which they've explained that developing for tablets has been a lot more work than they thought it would be, as they assumed (like you mentioned) that Unity would 'take care of most of the work'. There's an old IT adage that says that you spend 10% of the time doing 90% of the work, and 90% of the time doing the final 10%. Part of this is what happens when you multiplatform, the 'details' take a lot of time.
 
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Multiplatform products aka PC, MAC and Linux - I'm instabacker.

Multiplatform products aka advertised as PC/Mac/Linux but de facto phonegames that'll be ported on PC/Mac/Linux - I can't understand, or better said refuse to understand to this day why are people backing those things.
Remember, all phonegames can be played on PC via freeware android emulator called Bluestacks and there is no porting needed. Advertising KS project as multiplatform, then writing in small letters it'll work also on phones is IMO a fraud and as such, again IMO, should be banned from KS or at least not backed by the audience.
 
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