Gothic 3 - Let the fan patches begin...

Maylander said:

Keep in mind that there's also a matter of principle here. If PB hands out a free patch, JoWood has "won" - their game becomes a whole lot better, at the hands of PB, despite not paying anyone for it. I don't think PBs problem here is trying to helping it the fans, it's the fact that they would also help out JoWood a lot at the same time. In fact, they would increase JoWoods income greatly, and strengthen the Gothic brand for future JoWood Gothic games.

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But now the fans are doing the same thing. Any 'net-savvy gamer takes the time to read what's going on in the community of a game. If someone reads that all the major bugs have been fixed by fans, a gamer is possibly more likely to buy the game. And the fans who fixed it didn't get paid. The have "helped" JoWood for free. But what they've really done is help a game that they love become more like what it should have been.

PB may very well look at it as if they are helping JoWood sell games if they fix the game they created. But they could just as easily look at it in the light that by fixing the game they are creating confidence and goodwill within their fan base... ensuring that those fans will buy their next project.

(Lets say that PB decides to fix Gothic 3 for free) - If I stood at the game store and looked at two games - one from JoWood, and one from PB... I would remember that PB took care of their fans and made their game the greatest it could be, and I would buy the PB game.

And I don't believe anything about legal issues. If PB comes to JoWood and says "We want to fix our game...no cost to you", JoWood is going to say "Ummm... Okay".

At this point that game has probably sold about 85% of what it's going to (if not higher) There aren't going to be that many more buyers. PB can only strengthen their reputation by fixing it, regardless if it puts a little extra cash in JoWood's hands or not. By fixing the game PB is putting future money into their hands, and ensuring their existence as a company.

True narpet, that is one possible scenario.

When I did this IT business course at Uni last year, there was a 3 weeks section on Ethics. Really interesting. I remember one particular case study which I had to analyze. It basically talked about a company releasing an unfinished product, then later running out of funds to support it. The issue was whether the company should fix the product at no cost (free), or whether they should just give that project up.

This business with PB and jowood reminded me of that case study. Fingers Crossed PB will go through with it.

Piranha Bytes is not a living entity. It's a company. Telling a developer to work for free today in order to get some cash in five years is really not an option, especially not when this free work at the same time will help those that just cut their funding.

I am a developer myself, and even though I would be willing to do this as a hobby (if I worked at PB), I would definetly not do it as part of my job. Go for months without salary just to please a few consumers of a brand that I most likely will never work with again?

Developers without funding are just that - developers without funding. They are pretty much broke, and they certainly can't afford to do charity work as part of a risky investment that may or may not pay up in half a decade. The only way to do that is to either fire people or let the developers do voluntairly work outside their workhours.

Remember, what little money PB has left from G3 is supposed to finance their next project untill they get more funding. If they want to ensure their existence, they have to get busy and start a new project right away so they can actually get more funding ASAP, or they'll go down the drain like so many other developers.

I'm a developer as well... I've been in the business of developing corporate related software for over 15 years... and I have something that's called integrity. I take pride in my work. I work for a salary, which means I don't get paid overtime. But if something isn't working that I developed, I work after hours (if need be) to fix it. Over those 15+ years I have had to work many, many hours of overtime to insure that my products work. Did I get paid for that extra work? No. Did it insure the confidence of my superiors and my clients? Yes.

Other game companies have done it (they've been mentioned already in this thread). Individual developers have done it (also mentioned in this thread)... working on their own time to fix the game that they lovingly crafted. Their integrity and care for their product drove them to make it better whether they got paid or not. I'm sorry, but nobody is going to convince me that there is a sound financial reason for not fixing the product that they created.

There's no way that actually finishing Gothic 3 could hurt PB as a company, or the developers as individuals. Even if an individual developer moves on to a different company, that reputation will travel with him/her. So they have to spend some 12 hour days at work to fix what they created... so what... there are thousands of developers who do it every day. And don't try to tell me that my salary is adjusted to take into account that I may work overtime... it's not. I make about 50% of the national average for a developer with my credentials. This is by choice, because I decided to go to work for a small company (leaving big corporate America behind - and taking a huge pay-cut) because of the atmosphere and other important reasons. I love my job... but I don't get paid for the overtime that I work every single week.

Bottom Line - The PB developers could fix this game if they wanted to... they just don't want to. And spite is a terrible reason to abandon your fans.

Both points are legitimate, Maylander's and narpet's, but narpet is ultimately right, IMO.

We all do what we have to do in order to survive, and sometimes that means putting ourselves first, but we usually find a way to do it without compromising our ethics. It's just not that hard. It's not naive to expect that in business, either. Managers make ethical choices all the time, the same way individuals do.

PB may be in a tough spot. The common business practices of their industry, extending advances and shipping low-quality products, are partly to blame, IMO. But if PB sold a seriously-flawed product, then they have an ethical responsibility to bring it up to par.

How and when the money flowed to PB is moot. It matters to them, obviously, because now they're in a bind. But it's moot in terms of ethics. Their customers paid for their product in good faith, and the onus is now on them to respond in kind, somehow.

Their hands are somewhat tied, and they probably can't even say what they want to say because of the legal battles ahead. All things considered, PB could probably use a break right now. As a fan, I'm still willing to give it to them. I think maybe some others are not. PB should address their concerns, and they should do it soon.

I also fully agree with narpet, especially because Kai Rosenkranz from PB (yes, this is my favorite quote ) said himself at Christmas 2006 after the 1.12 patch that they (PB) would "betray themselves and their company policy [...] if we would leave the players with an unfinished game". There. "Unfinished game". After patch 1.12. Officially confirmed. As official as it gets. And I didn't rip this quote out of context either. There were no "ifs" and no "buts" (like if further patches are covered by the contract or any limitations... he just said it like that). They lied. They're not keeping word. They have no "integrity" (as narpet put it).
It would be a piece of cake for them to fix what the community has fixed so far. They could also easily label it as a "community patch" under a funny user name like "Stinky Fish" or something stupid like that to circumvent JoWood's QA requirements.
If they really, seriously wanted to, there'd be ways to "stealth-fix" the game. Problem is that they don't want to.
Or as Ralf from PB said they are (and I quote again) "more than happy to leave the situation with JoWood behind". This implies that they are also more than happy to leave G3 behind. Great. Good for you guys. Thanks for nothing.

@ Ragon: I fully agree with you on the subject of the bugginess of previous Gothics. Gothic I + II had quite a fair share of bugs. Yes. But they were mostly pure script bugs that were easily fixed via either using the console or via the patches that were luckily delivered in fairly rapid succession back then.
Gothic 3 on the other hand is a totally different story since the game has not only the same type of script bugs (issues that are now addressed by the community fixes) but on top of that also very fundamental issues at the very core of the game. Issues like "Where's the guru" (which is still happening to some peeps even after 1.12), disappearing NPCs, bad/non-existent collision detection, a FUBAR combat system with multiple bugs/exploits, braindead AI, non-existent balancing etc etc etc are very fundamental problems that lie at the very core of the engine and the game systems. That's why PB wanted to basically rewrite parts of G3 while developing G4. They knew exactly that this engine was fuXX0red up beyond any hope of repair.
That was certainly not the case with Gothic I or II. Gothic I + II had -comparatively- very "light" bugs.

So PB gets held to this standard, but JoWood -- who published the product and put it in your hands -- don't get the same level of pressure from you guys to pay PB to get it fixed?

Can anyone confirm if The unofficial bugfix package works with the North American version of Gothic 3?

(not related to Dhruin´s post)

JoWooD said they will tolerate reverse engineering of Gothic 3 if it´s done for bug-fixing or modding.
Furthermore they say they´re trying to find means to further assist fan patches. At least official documentation, maybe more.
They have one positive example of successful cooperation with hobby devs to make fan patches: JoWooD gave them the complete source code and tool set for Söldner - Secret Wars. The result is Söldner 2 for cheap.

I can imagine how happy JoWooD is about the situation. PB gets the flak and JoWooD saves money.

@JDR13

http://forum.jowood.com/showthread.php?t=143904

By now the package v1.1 contains the following fixes:

Frithjof-Fix by Hans Trapp:
This fix allows you to hand the last fire chalice to Frithjof. You'll get some dialogs and 1500XP. The quest will get solved.

Perk-Fix by FreeSergey:
This fix makes the perks "Fire Mage" and "Improve Armor" available. Teachers are Karrypto and Mannig.

Blacksmith-Sound-Fix by Valfaris222:
Sometimes when liberating a town a false sound was played. This is fixed now.

Speech fix for Musan by zyankali~:
This one fixes the missing dialog options and wrong dialog between Musan and the Hero.

Saw-Quest-Fix by AHO:
This fix solves the bug which caused Vandorn in Vanguard to expect 15 instead of 5 saws.

Slavegold-Fix by buecherwurm93:
This fix solves a bug which made a slave in Silden give you twice the gold you were meant to be given.

Stringtable-Fix by Humanforce:
This fix corrects many spelling and dialog errors. This might just be noticable in the German version.


Installation: Unzip the Files to your Gothic3 directory !

The package's language is still only in German, but it perfectly works with all language versions of the game !

Remember that this one is still inofficial though and MIGHT result in other bugs or corrupted savegames. You install this on your own responsibility !

I'll keep you updated if there are any more fixes.

Cheers,
Beat

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Fan-patch 1.2 is out now:
http://forum.jowood.com/showthread.php?t=144098

Dhruin said:

So PB gets held to this standard, but JoWood -- who published the product and put it in your hands -- don't get the same level of pressure from you guys to pay PB to get it fixed?

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I completely empathize with the situation that has happened between JoWood and PB... but I can only look at this in real world terms.

Example: I am contracted to write a piece of order tracking software for a client. My boss (the company that contracted me), my client (the company that wants the software), and I sit down and determine all of the criteria and functionality for the product (this doesn't happen in one day of course). We then (all of us) agree upon a completion date based on milestone deliverables.

I have problems that were unexpected so I ask to change the timeline, which the client and my boss agree upon (MY contracted pay stays the same).

I finish the product and we test it as well as we can in a simulated environment.

The company that I am contracted through delivers the product and we shortly discover that there are a lot of serious bugs that I have missed in my programming.

You can look at my boss (the company that contracted me) as the publisher, and the client as the gamer. Now... in the real world my boss is going to come to me and expect me to fix the program in as timely a manner as is possible. Is the company that contracted me (my boss) going to pay me more to spend the time to fix MY errors... NO.

So, although I would love to see JoWood come to their senses and contract PB to finish the game... that doesn't happen very often in the real world.

The example I've given is real. I wrote a huge database application for THE major telephone company (in about 1993) and it was indeed broken upon delivery (there were variables I had not planned for - which may not have even been completely my fault). The company that contracted me to write this software (middle-man) expected me to fix what I had contracted to create, and I did just that. I had already been paid, and I was NOT going to get paid more.

It's time we as consumers stop making excuses for developers. You wrote it... you fix it.

How will I handle JoWood's involvement in this? Very simple... I've already said it elsewhere on this site... I will NOT buy another JoWood game. I know most of you have a hard time believing it... but tough. I don't care if they publish the most incredible game ever created, they're not getting my money.

And if more people would stand up and speak with their wallets, companies like JoWood would stop forcing s&^t out the door too early just to cash in during the fiscal quarter when they want the money the most. If nobody bought a joWood game for 1 year they would be out of business... or doing some serious PR work. And you can very well believe that the next game they published would be as bug free as possible.

On the other hand... PB still has a chance to get my money over and over. I love the games they've created. Fix this one... show me you care... do the type of work that I myself am held accountable to do, and I will gladly buy any game you create.

Sorry... that's just how I feel.

Dhruin said:

So PB gets held to this standard...

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Wait a sec . They are holding themselves to this standard. It is them who made all these promises under the pretense of company ethics and community friendliness and... generally giving a damn.
As I said before, I would not really have had a problem (beyond being pissed off for 30 minutes or so) if they would have announced no further patches beyond 1.12 after 1.12 was released. But to pretend over weeks and months as if they were some sort of community heroes and as if something big and awesome was in the works and then to drop G3 like this... nope, that's just plain lame.

...but JoWood -- who published the product and put it in your hands -- don't get the same level of pressure from you guys to pay PB to get it fixed?

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JoWood has paid a few million EUR for a finished product in the first place. Now before someone brings up the usual "Well, QA is JoWood's problem"... yes, it is but what if QA work is ignored... or even worse manipulated? That's right. Rumor has it (from a WoG community member who actually visited PB in Essen, Germany, shortly before the game's release and who definitely has inside knowledge) that PB deceived and tricked JoWood into believing that G3 was finished.
What PB did apparently is that they re-labeled category A bugs to lower category bugs at their own leisure just to get finished.
In other words: The work of the Romanian testers was ignored and heavily manipulated by re-prioritizing bugs at the free will and choice of the developer (PB).
This would also explain why Ivan Ertlov of JoWood entered into that retarded "mead bet" where he offered every single person who found a category A bug a free evening of drinking as much mead as the person wants to. He was misinformed... or a less kind way to put it would be "cheated"... into believing that G3 no longer had any bugs of the highest category.
Sure, it's just a rumor but it sounds about 99.6% true, especially since it's coming from a PB-friendly and trustworthy source.

Secondly, there was a period between October 13 and December 21 when patches were obviously still covered by the contract (or whatever other payment/agreement) or we wouldn't even have a 1.12 patch. There was apparently also at least a legal "framework" or however you want to call it for further patching or PB wouldn't have spent weeks and months making up a patch "in their heads".
As I said before, the bugs that the community is fixing now should have been fixed by PB a long time ago already between October and December. It is plain pathetic that they didn't manage to fix these trivial issues back then and it is even more pathetic that they lied and said that these bugs could only be fixed via one big patch and finally it is the pinnacle of patheticness that nothing at all has happened ever since the 1.12 patch. Regardless of payment.
If they were only half as community friendly as they claim and pretend to be they would at least get their asses in motion now and help the people who are doing their job.

JoWooD always had the option to refuse the gold master candidate.

PB only has one customer: JoWooD. If JoWooD approves the gold master their job is done, except for the fix list attached to the approval.

Gorath said:

JoWooD always had the option to refuse the gold master candidate.

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Not a realistic one if the rumor is true that JW received faked test reports and if the developer swears with one hand on the bible and the other on the grave of his dead grandmother that the release day patch is the mother of all patches that will make the product virtually bug-free. At least the latter has certainly happened. The former is "only" a very likely rumor.

PB only has one customer: JoWooD. If JoWooD approves the gold master their job is done, except for the fix list attached to the approval.

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So you're saying you've seen the contract and that you know which provisions they made regarding patching/post-release support? Interesting .
Seriously, their job is certainly not done when the gold master is approved. The mere existence of patch 1.07, 1.08, 1.09 and 1.12 proves it.
Their job is even much less done if they are stupid enough to make promises (not to JW but to the paying customers) about patches in public and if they do not deliver upon said promises.

Moriendor said:

Not a realistic one if the rumor is true that JW received faked test reports and if the developer swears with one hand on the bible and the other on the grave of his dead grandmother that the release day patch is the mother of all patches that will make the product virtually bug-free. At least the latter has certainly happened. The former is "only" a very likely rumor.

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A rumor, as you said.
There´s no chance in hell that JoWooD invests millions in a game and doesn´t know in which condition it is.

Read the price list on the homepage of Ertl´s company and you´ll understand why not a single word by Ertl or Glockenbeat can be believed without a careful fact check.

We´re running in circles about the other topic. You´re taking this far too personally.

Latest update:

JoWooD, or rather their community management, is in the process of building a team of capable forum members. It seems select people from both forums have received offers to join the team lead and coordinated by ACM Glockenbeat. The members will receive access to the G3 source code after signing an NDA. The team will receive a "bonus" if/when patches are delivered.

Glockenbeat´s posts furthermore implied there are more plans ...



I don´t know what to think.

Gorath said:

I don´t know what to think.

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I do. I'm glad that someone is finally getting their asses in gear and actually doing something other than spreading lies and working on crap "in their heads" (aaahhh... there it was again... this sweet burning sensation of hatred deep inside ). Ahem.
This is a very commendable effort on the part of JW and with a bit of luck this will lead to the ideal situation of PB (or at least some members of PB who made wild promises about GB patches and stuff like that) joining these efforts. If PB want to keep their face and at least retain a bare minimum of their "community friendly" reputation then they just must react to this in one way or another, ideally by offering help/documentation/tools/whatever. Unless they have really turned into complete assholes (which is a possibility unfortunately), they can't just ignore this. Let's hope for the best and that a semi-/quarter-official patch that addresses at least some of the most obvious flaws comes out of this all .

So you say it´s a commendable effort that JoWooD tries to take control of the community´s effort to patch G3? JoWooD should either unconditionally (exception: NDA for the sources) support the community bug-fixers or hire professionals.
The combination of "no or only symbolic money" and "control" smells fishy.

Gorath said:

JoWooD should either unconditionally (exception: NDA for the sources) support the community bug-fixers or hire professionals. The combination of "no or only symbolic money" and "control" smells fishy.

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Maybe, but it's also two-thirds of the equation coming back together. All it would take is for PB to extend a helping hand, and it'll be one big happy family again.

Wouldn't it be nice....

Gorath said:

So you say it´s a commendable effort that JoWooD tries to take control of the community´s effort to patch G3?

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Yes, I do, because this is going to lead to far more substantial fixes than the community efforts. The PAK extractor only allows people access to some very basic script files. JoWood's effort will allow certain willing and talented people from the community access to the actual source code so this is a much more serious effort.
Besides, I think it makes sense for someone to "officially" take control. The whole community fixing thing was turning into an ego trip of certain people ("haha, look, I can fix this bug faster and better than you neenerneenerneener") and into a competition between PB loyalists at WoG and JW loyalists from their forums anyway. There was certainly a great risk of the whole thing getting out of control and imploding so I think it makes sense to establish a certain level of control from "higher up".

JoWooD should either unconditionally (exception: NDA for the sources) support the community bug-fixers or hire professionals.
The combination of "no or only symbolic money" and "control" smells fishy.

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Hey, they did hire professionals but they have gone (or swimming?) AWOL .
Anyway, I don't see what's fishy here. Did JW hold a gun to the heads of the community volunteers? No. These folks have volunteered to look into the source material and these folks can punch out and leave at any time if they do not want to pursue it any further. But at least JoWood is doing something.
Also, from a business point of view, I have full understanding for JW not wanting to hire (more) paid professionals after they have pumped millions into G3 and after they had to suffer through a full one year delay, a n00b-ish and embarassing goldmaster debacle and then finally three/four (counting the release patch or not) rather unsubstantial patches, all due to the incompetence of their formerly hired "professionals" .