The state of things in Greece

Interesting that in that entire lengthly article, I see absolutely no mention of what got Greece into their mess in the first place, nor the slightest hint of an alternate solution to the problem. Just so much handwringing and moaning.

It's painfully obvious that you really enjoy that particular website and that you're repeatedly taken in by their ignorance of the facts in favor of shock value.

The goal of the ongoing capitalist offensive in the form of a neoliberal doctrine is to destroy symbolically and physically the most vulnerable strata of the population, to put the entire society in a moribund state to impose the most unprecedented austerity measures that generate profit for the most privileged classes internationally.
I might be willing to go so far as to call that a predictable outcome of austerity, but to paint it as a goal is just plain ridiculous.
 
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Greece got were they are because of corruption, incompetence and failure to evolve.
I really feel for their citizens, but they should have demanded more of their politicians for the last 30 years (and realized that there is not such thing as a free lunch, sooner or later, the butchers bill will come)

When they joined EU they could take loans with the economy of germany et cetera as security with much lower interests than they ever could with Greece´s economic performance and debt. If those loans had been used to increase productivity and performance, infrastructure and so on they might never have gotten into this situation. Instead they used the loans for consumption, same as other countries in the same situation (looking at spain and others here).

On industry, either you produce expensive with high quality and can sell your stuff for higher prices (germany and some other Industrialized countries, or you produce cheap with decent quality and sell cheap (as in some asian economies, though their expenses and quality are rising).
Greece, and some other europeaneconomies have gotten themselfes into a situation were it is expensive to produce in their countries (low efficiency) and with less quality than some economies that focus on low production costs.

They cant compete on either quality or cost and they have a painful road ahead.
But it is possible, look at some of the baltic states (and Finland to some degree).
You have to have a "crisis acceptance" with the general public and a society (both politicians and voters) who understands what must be done.

Man ! , that touched a nerve in me ;-)
C
 
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Well, one problem is that Germany kind of "out-produces" most countries in terms of cost & quality right now. They are no more record holders for Europe's higest amount of experts, but they are still close.

Which means that other countries like France, Greece etc. rather import - thus rather giviong the money away than keeping it in the country - and don't get many boyers in other countries anymore.

In my opinion, what Greece had to fulfill in order to get money was quite harsh. The economy of more or less on the ground right now.

The only positive is that Greece has begun a fight against corruption. It is astonishing how much money politicians and cheaters were able to take.

All collective bargaining expired on May 14, 2013, and it has been replaced by individual contracts where workers become hostages of their employers. Base salary went tumbling down to 500 Euros monthly (400 for young people) - not to mention a retroactive salary cut of 22 percent (32 percent for youth) in February 2012.

This reminds me of the "wage slavery" I posted elsewhere about.

One thing no-one else writes about is that seemingly members of the Greece army or / and police are intercepting those who try to get to Greece by boat from Afrika on the open sea, bounding them, and leaving their boats alone after making them unable to move.
The wish not to get any immogrants from Africa into Greece seemingly has led to illegal "taskforces" which try to intercept possible immigrants and making sure that no-one enters the country.
However, a similar, although not as harsh and brutal thing is currently happening with Spain as well.

The anthropomorphism of the market is illustrated when "markets" are used in the mainstream media in sentences such as "the markets showed satisfaction today" or "the market is struggling," and "we need to convince the markets," "we should appease the markets," or "let's wait and see how the markets respond.

Well spotted !

All in all this is a very good, yet harsh, article. This is a person who thinks in "patterns" like I do.
 
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Living in Athens and experiencing the crisis from it's beginning i think the article is not as accurate as it should be.
Yes, a lot has changed. The quality of life is reduced. The unemployment rate is tragic, many people killed themselves. But,in a cynic way, you expect that in a bankrupt country.
What scares me is, that nomatter the good reports, and official statements that things are changing, that we are facing the crisis the wrong way. Wrong measures, wrong taxes, wrong everything.
Short term solutions, to please the troika and get the money and pay the interest of loans.
"Greece has begun a fight against corruption". Wrong statement. The corrupted cannot fight corruption. Just acting like they do.
 
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Looking over at France, I notice something that truly worries me :

People are disappointed from politicians, people are disappointed that politicians don't work for the public's well-boing, but instead they work for "the markets", for everyone who has money. Money that maybe can be invested, maybe not.

What do people do : They turn towards radical right-wing parties.

The newspaper says that the biggest French radical right-wing patry gaines the most of their election winnings in the poorest areas. There, where people were most disappointed from politicians.

And this is a trend seemingly going on everywhere in Europe. People who suffered from the "money gap" because they earn not much anymore and feel left alone with their struggles with no help coming from market-oriented politicians, those people turn towards radicals out of frustration - and thus damaging the base of democracy and social stability.

So, I tend to think that for the sake of social stability, there should be less market-oriented politics, because it seems that the politicians' focusing on liberal markets destroys - in the long term - social stability.

One of the few examples where this was not the case was post-WWII Germany with Ludwig Erhardt.

Which could mean that a country's economy should lesser be oriented towards being ready to battle with other economies (low wages, low costs, for example), but rather changed so that people get a feeling of well-being within the country (which could involve higher wages).

I think it is fairly obvious that the more poor people are, the more they turn towards radicals. And if this becomes a mass stream, then good night.

(What I'll never understand is why cutting wages (as costs ) was always put forward as a reasoning to be international competitive - but at the same time the rise of wages for companies' top positions makes them international competitive, too ?)
 
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You should take another look at the definition of democracy, Alrik. People are allowed to demand change from their government and make individual choices about the type of government they want. The fact that you (or many others like you) don't happen to approve of the choices being made really is irrelevant. If anything, you should be pleased with the clear evidence that democracy is working as it should.

Your desire to stomp out the political choices of others strikes me as far more fascist than a bunch of people using democracy as they should.
 
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Greece got were they are because of corruption, incompetence and failure to evolve.
I really feel for their citizens, but they should have demanded more of their politicians for the last 30 years (and realized that there is not such thing as a free lunch, sooner or later, the butchers bill will come)


C

The citizens of Greece were also riding the gravy train and not just the politicians. You can't simply blame the politicians for this mess, the citizens also need to take the blame. Maybe the politicians corrupted the citizens but towards the end they were all init. After all Greece is a democracy...
 
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The citizens of Greece were also riding the gravy train and not just the politicians. You can't simply blame the politicians for this mess, the citizens also need to take the blame. Maybe the politicians corrupted the citizens but towards the end they were all init. After all Greece is a democracy…

Yes. But what about about 15, 20, 25 years old people, starting their lives? You can't blame them, yet, they can't find a job and have no future. Or, will you tell me that choices of others affect others? It's a big debate. You can blame the citizens, but is a small percentage. The blame goes for those who steal, cheat and deceive, not the vicitims.

Anyway, it's easy to pass judgement when you are out of the problem. And most of us(if not all) do that.
 
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Yes. But what about about 15, 20, 25 years old people, starting their lives? You can't blame them, yet, they can't find a job and have no future. Or, will you tell me that choices of others affect others? It's a big debate. You can blame the citizens, but is a small percentage. The blame goes for those who steal, cheat and deceive, not the vicitims.

Anyway, it's easy to pass judgement when you are out of the problem. And most of us(if not all) do that.

I agree with lot of what you say however my reply was to the point (or implication) that somehow if you change the politicians then things will get better and corruption will simply go away.
 
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I agree with lot of what you say however my reply was to the point (or implication) that somehow if you change the politicians then things will get better and corruption will simply go away.

My theory is that there are not corrupted people but corrupted systems, when we look at bigger pictures. Greeks became corrupted because the system allowed such behaviours.
If punishments are hard and for everyone, people will think twice. If you know that if you steal, they'll find you and take you down, you don't do it.

Change the corrupted politicians, heal the system and the citizens will follow. The loop here, is that citizens must change the politicians. And this is the tough thing to do.
 
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Looking over at France, I notice something that truly worries me :


On the subject of France the influence of neo-liberalism can also be seen in stronger boundaries between rich and poor compared to the 90's while immigrants are largely perceived as being outside the community of those deserving recognition and protection.
The repeated attacks on workers rights, the driving down of living standards and the worsening social and economic situation are the direct results of the neo-liberal policies of the government that have been ongoing for almost two decades.
As you noted people are increasingly becoming more open to radical ideas and as a result extremist groups are gaining more of a foothold.
While the first waves of riots were in response to specific laws and similar (like the CPE and CNE contracts) the more recent trend has been to target immigrants, specifically muslims who inturn respond with riots of their own.
I believe they have even started banning veils in public recently.
 
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