Obsidian Entertainment - MCA Interview @ IG

What makes games so special that they have to be protected from the after sale market.

It mostly has to do with the fact that the vast majority of games does not have a secondary market where additional income is generated. The publishers have one shot at retail and that one shot needs to stick so they look for ways to maximize (initial) sales.
This is different with movies or music where the secondary market is often times actually larger than the primary market. George Lucas has made the majority of his moolah from merchandise sales and not from people watching Star Wars in the cinema.
And ever since Napster nuked the music industry most artists make their money from live performances since they could only barely survive on record sales alone.
Only very few games (like WoW) are popular enough to have secondary markets. Otherwise publishers totally rely on the sales of the actual retail or digital product (including DLC). That's why they don't want people to buy used.
 
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The only games I own I've ever considered selling are the ones that I regretted buying because they were complete rubbish. I usually only buy games I'm quite certain I will enjoy thoroughly. If people couldn't expect to get some money back from a disappointing game would they give half the games they considered buying a chance?
 
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He loves Dead Island, it's a damn fun game. ;)

It's defiantly consoles he is referring to, but in reality the bigger problem is game rentals. I keep reading when there's a cross platform release, consoles are the games getting cracked and pirated before release and by vast margins. The whole PC piracy thing is a red herring m$ media campaign started to justify console only development titles during 2002-2010. It's just a lot of drm companies got rich during that time and don't want to let go of the revenue stream, so we're still getting blowback.
 
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What did you think most of the recent DRM measures like limits on the number of activations and pre-order/first activation exclusive dlc were for?

You don't have many second hand shops in your area, do you ?

So half of the world's largest bricks-and-mortar video game retailer's profits came from used games. Why would anyone be surprised a game developer thinks that is bad?

Well, Gamestop is still relatively new here. They've expanded, oh yes, they did ! - But they still play a minor role compared to electronic chains lke Saturn, Media Markt, Promarkt, etc. . I know Gamestop since … I think 2006. And an employee actually once said to me that they didn't sell any used PC games anymore. With exactly this wording. I think that originally, shops were selling used PC games here as well, although I can't remember anymore, because here there still is a funcioning PC games market - in contrast o other countries where the video games makets are clearly dominated by consoles.

I still do know shops which sell used PC games, but during the last decade there also closed several shops, like the Berlin "Media Tunnel", which had really ancient pearls ! Or the "Com Play" shop of Cologne.

Often there are pure second hand shops which not only sell used clothes, furniture, electronic devices etc. but also video games - and often PC games, because the console games are sold by Gmestop, or by other second hand shops which have specialized on selling used console games because used PC games just don't generate that much profits anymore. Due to the rapid change of system requirements and OSses, the PC is always the loser. Console games have a much, much, much higher resell value, simpl because consoles just don't change. And that's most second hand video games shops go for.

Almost every smaller games shop here also sells used games. And almost never used PC games.
Used PC games can nowadays almost only found on ebay or on flea markets.
 
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Yes it does seem like the computer PC game industry wants to wipe out the used games market with the linking to steam accounts for many new games.

Maybe they should try this on other items we buy, such as books, and cars. Where it would be illegal to sell your used copy of a book or a used car. I guess that wouldn't fly, can't imagine why. <a little sarcasm in tone>

Yeah, they're already trying that with books.

Along those lines, a home developer in Texas is in court (at least I still think it is in court) because he slipped in the home owners association a provision where he gets 5% of any sale (not appreciation) of any home in the subdivision FOREVER.
 
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It mostly has to do with the fact that the vast majority of games does not have a secondary market where additional income is generated. The publishers have one shot at retail and that one shot needs to stick so they look for ways to maximize (initial) sales.
This is different with movies or music where the secondary market is often times actually larger than the primary market. George Lucas has made the majority of his moolah from merchandise sales and not from people watching Star Wars in the cinema.
And ever since Napster nuked the music industry most artists make their money from live performances since they could only barely survive on record sales alone.
Only very few games (like WoW) are popular enough to have secondary markets. Otherwise publishers totally rely on the sales of the actual retail or digital product (including DLC). That's why they don't want people to buy used.

Don't buy that argument at all. Go into any Gamestop and you'll find a ton of action figures, t shirts, comic books and key chains stuff from all kinds of games. Additionally, a movie is more likely to be made from a game than a song. I see no reason at all that games should be getting any type of extra protection more than what books, music, or movies get.
 
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Of course it's potentially a lost sale. Consumers show up at Gamestop and the store actively encourages a used version over a new one - there is no doubt there are lost sales.

There are other elements of complexity but to suggest that because there was one original sale at the beginning of the chain means there aren't lost sale sales along the rest of the chain is ridiculous.



"Illegal"? Where do you get illegal? Get a sense of perspective - a developer saying he hopes a different model of sales gains the ascendancy is a million miles from "illegal".

Still, to address the comparisons. Can you name a book store chain with 6500 stores that prefers 2nd-hand sales over new? I can't.

http://www.hpb.com/stores/ they sell nothing but used goods. I buy many books/Magazines/Gamed/dvd's from them.

Guess I'm crook because I prefer to buy cheap in the developers eyes. They don't have 6500 but they have about 100. So there doing something right.
 
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Don't buy that argument at all. Go into any Gamestop and you'll find a ton of action figures, t shirts, comic books and key chains stuff from all kinds of games. Additionally, a movie is more likely to be made from a game than a song. I see no reason at all that games should be getting any type of extra protection more than what books, music, or movies get.

Don't buy it all you like - but how about not adding irrelevant stuff in on top? Who said anything about "protection"?

http://www.hpb.com/stores/ they sell nothing but used goods. I buy many books/Magazines/Gamed/dvd's from them.

Guess I'm crook because I prefer to buy cheap in the developers eyes. They don't have 6500 but they have about 100. So there doing something right.

Good for you...and thanks for the link that doesn't respond to my point. 100 stores is so insignificant, noone has ever heard of them. The point is when the world's largest genre retailer is heavily promoting used, it skews the market, which is quite a bit different to the odd second-hand book store here and there.
 
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Good for you…and thanks for the link that doesn't respond to my point. 100 stores is so insignificant, noone has ever heard of them. The point is when the world's largest genre retailer is heavily promoting used, it skews the market, which is quite a bit different to the odd second-hand book store here and there.

Your welcome. I tend to read and hear what I want to.:p

Still publishers and developers wont be satisfied till they have complete control over everything. I'm still waiting for a good argument on what makes them and there games so special.

Also since when is owning 100 stores insignificant?
 
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Dhruin, I have some sympathy where digital goods are concerned - for the simple fact that in that case a used good is in no way inferior to the new product, which indeed creates an unfair disadvantage for the original seller. But that is already the case - you can't resell your steam copy afaik, unless you make a new account for every game you purchase, which is very inconvenient.
However, as long as we are talking physical goods (and I would argue that a boxed copy of a game is indeed a physical good, as the medium itself, but also the box, the manual, etc. will age, that is the used product is somewhat inferior to the new one), I can see no fundamental difference to selling used books, films, or music - or do you think those should be forbidden too?
I mean I can certainly understand why the industry doesn't like it, but that doesn't mean we have to support them in this. And I don't see why Gamestop is particularly relevant in this discussion - what about Amazon, ebay, etc. - those are the principle trading hubs for used goods.
 
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..or do you think those should be forbidden too?

I don't think anything should be forbidden. My irritation is with so many people putting words in Chris' mouth. He never said anything should be "protected" or "illegal" but a bunch of people either didn't read it or didn't bother applying any comprehension.

I mean I can certainly understand why the industry doesn't like it, but that doesn't mean we have to support them in this. And I don't see why Gamestop is particularly relevant in this discussion - what about Amazon, ebay, etc. - those are the principle trading hubs for used goods.

It's only relevant in that I used it as an example that gaming is (to my knowledge) unique in having a dominant High St retailer more interested in selling second-hand than new. If I buy from GameStop, they will try to push used. If I buy a book from the largest bricks & mortar book retailer (Barnes & Noble? They have a paltry 700 stores, so they barely compare but I don't know a better suggestion) that doesn't happen.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to like it - just not to accuse Chris of demanding used game sellers be tried in The Hague for crimes against humanity.
 
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Anyway, I'm not asking you to like it - just not to accuse Chris of demanding used game sellers be tried in The Hague for crimes against humanity.

OK, I get you - however "I hope digital distribution stabs the used game market in the heart." Isn't exactly a highly differentiated comment either...
 
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GBG and Dhruin having a debate - and GBG cursing in another thread…

Wow ;)

Next thing I know, Dhruin will try something other than having a neutral or positive opinion about some game!!!
 
It's only relevant in that I used it as an example that gaming is (to my knowledge) unique in having a dominant High St retailer more interested in selling second-hand than new.

Interesting. From that perspective ... I see it much clearer now.

I think ... that Gamestop effectivel filled the niche (right word ?) that "normal" used video games shops had. And since Gamestop is a brand label/name, as well, people mightfeel of rather trusting this shop/chain that individual shops selling used videogames.

In the end, I think that Gmestop's market-dopminance in selling used videogames (and an imho much, much more professional approach than individual shops have !) is slowly destroying more and more the once myriad of individual used games shops.

And it is also a matter of how the market is built, too.
Here, for example, we have nearl no individual non-used games selling shops at all. Nothing at all. I only know two, and one of them in a town around 20-30 Km away. And they - of course ! - sell used games, too (although fewer and fewer used PC games).

My point is that the market here almost only consists of electronic chains selling non-used games, and second Gamestop. But the electronics chains still dominate the market.

Individuial shops just don't exist. And if they exist, they are very rare. And they usually don't import, too. I don't remember any offline shop importing games here. Only online shops do it. And the electronics chains don't do it per principle.

And since no shop except Gamestop (which is still dominated by the electronics chains in terms of non-used games) really sells used games - as a "high street retailer", using your words, there might be fewer necessity to battle the used games market here than elsewhere. This is if course just a guess.

That's how I see the German market. Someone please correct me if necessary, because of course this view is subjective.




(And I accidentally wrote "nun-used games" ... :lol: )
 
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Chris A said
Of course, one of the greatest things about digital distribution is what it does to reduce the used game market. I hope digital distribution stabs the used game market in the heart.

And I totally disagree with the stance that the used game market has to die. I am totally against piracy, I don't steal music, movies or games. I know many who say it's okay in one medium but not another. And with the advent of a ubiquitous Internet, digital theft has never been easier. I get all the publisher and developer concerns. But once I buy a product, it's mine - I don't care what all that legal gobbledygook says after you install.

If Chris would have said Piracy is a huge threat to the industry and clients like Steam are helping stem the tide, I would be down with that. If Chris would have said that he wished there were more companies like GOG that would help with the used games in the digital market, I would be down with that. But he didn't say any of that stuff. He wants the used game market to die. Okay he didn't say that but what else can be inferred when he says "stab it in the heart."

As far as Gamestop pushing used games over new, that is hyperbole. Yes, Gamestop absolutely bugs you to give them your used games, but pushing new game over old games???? and as a policy???? Over the past 20 odd years I probably average going into Gamestop (software etc, egghead bla bla) probably once a week. In in that long time I think only once did an employee tell me they had a used version of the new game I was about to purchase. Heck, I used to work at Gamestop and was never told to do that. Something about goose and golden egg comes to mind here.

when we're talking about theft - I'm all for looking for ways to stop it. But when we're talking about eliminating the used game market. I am not down with that.

Of course, one of the greatest things about digital distribution is what it does to reduce the used game market. I hope digital distribution stabs the used game market in the heart.
 
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An experiment with words :

Original :

Of course, one of the greatest things about digital distribution is what it does to reduce the used game market. I hope digital distribution stabs the used game market in the heart.

My reworked version :

Of course, one of the greatest things about digital book readers is what it does to reduce the used books market. I hope digital book readers stabs the used books market in the heart.

This could become the future, one day.

And having seen how many things I did not believe in becoming "the future" actually became "the future", I don't think that this is too far fetched, imho.

Huge book publishers might actually pick up this idea in let's say … 20 years …
 
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And I totally disagree with the stance that the used game market has to die.

Disagree to your heart's content. You originally asked why games should be "protected" (followed by other posters who used "illegal" and "forbidden") - my point is simply that Chris doesn't advocate that games be protected (in this interview, anyway); he hopes digital will take over, which is up to the market in the end.
 
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Disagree to your heart's content. You originally asked why games should be "protected" (followed by other posters who used "illegal" and "forbidden") - my point is simply that Chris doesn't advocate that games be protected (in this interview, anyway); he hopes digital will take over, which is up to the market in the end.

Disagree to my heats content . . . hmmmm

Chris picked exlposive words when said "stab the used game market in the heart." I think it is completly fair to make inferences from such a remark that just may use the words "protected", "illegal", "forbidden". He actually never said something as sedate as "I hope the digital market takes over". He used the words "STAB IN THE HEART". And with that remark he basically started a dicsussion with the theme "them is fightin words"
 
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Yeah, to stab someone into the heart is definitively murder.
It would evoke a death sentence in some countries.
 
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