Fallout: New Vegas - NMA's Impression

Avernum 6.

I have skirted around that. Maybe I should give it a go.
I am not a total RPG nut but I have enjoyed games since Ultima 2, 3, Phantasie 3, Demons Winter when I was much younger. I guess now some of these are pretty simplistic. I finally found my first RPG "Journeys End" for the ZX Spectrum! great game for its time. Then of course FO1,2, Underworld, somehow skipped Arcanum as it ran poorly on my machines. I think much of the FO writing I cannot recall as I was around 16 ish when playing through them, or younger.
Also I find some RPGs require some stamina - Ultima 7 I never completed "properly", The Witcher I lost steam with at the Fields area.
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
136
Excellent news, sounds like all the opinions that are good indications as to whether I'd like a game are lined up in favour of New Vegas :)

Hope it proves to be a real hit for Obsidian, one studio I'd hate to see fail.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
London
Probably to soon, but FONV have "classic" written on it. I think this will be the kind of game people still recomend people to play many years from now, kinda like Vampire: Bloodlines.
 
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
6,027
You had to mention Bloodlines…….GREAT!!! and I was having such fun with Fallout :p

picture.php
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2007
Messages
5,347
Location
Taiwan
Probably to soon, but FONV have "classic" written on it.

Way too soon, but I don't think so. It lacks in replayability due to its many tedious quests, and its engine is simply too crappy (this does matter). It would have been a classic on a better engine that supports its core design concepts more, though.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,558
Wow! I haven't had a tedious quest yet and I think the engine's fine. What games are classics, in your mind, that have come out in the last 5 years? I think this is Obsidian's best effort so far, and they've made some pretty nice games.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
8,836
I like BN, who always has an informed opinion. But I have a feeling he is not entirely impartial when it comes to Fallout games :p However, whether something becomes a classic or not, only time can tell. Some very good games have never become classics; sometimes because they were overshadowed by earlier or later games, sometimes because they were too obscure, sometimes because they came out at the wrong time (I'm thinking of Grim Fandango, e.g.).
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,508
But I have a feeling he is not entirely impartial when it comes to Fallout games :p

You bet your ass I'm not!

But then again, I expected my bias against Fallout 3 to be so strong I never applied to review it on GameBanshee, and asked Vince to do it for NMA. But it turned out, well, it wasn't that bad. Don't get me wrong, I didn't love it, but I like to fool myself into thinking I'm not completely irrational when it comes to Fallout. Just really irrational, but not completely!

However, whether something becomes a classic or not, only time can tell.

This. Very strongly. GameBanshee has a "Hall of Fame" of games in our DB though it's not exactly promoted actively. At my suggestion, we use a buffer period (I forgot what it is exactly without looking it up, I think 2 years, maybe 3) before games are put up for consideration.

Wow! I haven't had a tedious quest yet and I think the engine's fine.

The game is filled with fetch/deliver quests that are saved by strong writing. I'm on my second playthrough and I actually can't bring myself to do Return to Sender or the Still in the Dark quests again. They're too boring.

The engine was outdated when Fallout 3 came out, but that's not even my point as I don't really care about graphics, my point is more that New Vegas doesn't feel like its maps and quests were always designed keeping the limitations of the engine in mind. Empty, expansive towns like Freeside and the Strip don't really work, nor do all the mountains with invisible walls spread throughout.

What games are classics, in your mind, that have come out in the last 5 years?

Batman: Arkham Asylum!!!

Uh…

A tough question especially since I don't play too many non-RPGs or, well, games in general. Gothic II (with Night of the Raven) and Bloodlines jump to mind but they fall outside of your 5-year boundary.

I'm not too fond personally of the Witcher, as in I didn't enjoy it, but I do consider it a potential classic. It's the only title that jumps to mind. Suggest a few? Avernum 6, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 2, BioShock, New Vegas are all RPG-ish titles in the past 5 years that I thought were really good, but I dunno if I'd call any of them classics.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,558
Way too soon, but I don't think so. It lacks in replayability due to its many tedious quests,

You lost me at tedious quests.

I hear this a lot about RPGs, but what exactly would a good quest entail and could you fill a whole rpg with just quality quests?;) I thought a lot of these quests were great. Some fedex crap, but at least it was interesting fedex crap :)

A few of the more tedious ones could be accomplished with high speech skills. Actually having speech as a viable skill this time around got tons of respect from me. I won't go into spoilers, but having more than just two sides to choose from is always good for replayability.

Last, but certainly not least is surviving in the wasteland. I played Fallout 3 for one reason. To enjoy the view and survive. The brain dead plot and NPCs only annoyed me. I did their quests, but the majority of the fun with that one was just surviving in this hostile land.

Fallout: NV took that surviving mentality and juiced it up with a great story, interesting NPCs, a setting that actually looks lived in and makes some kind of sense and lastly they tweaked the gameplay to make it more interesting. Still a little too easy, but that will be fixed soon enough.

I know I'll be replaying this one many times and doing things differently each time just to see the outcome. I'll even go the evil route one time just to see how different it is.

I'm saying this without having passed it. So unless it takes a hard right turn to bordomville then I believe I'll get many hours of entertainment out of this one.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2007
Messages
5,347
Location
Taiwan
Yep, I generally like Kharn's/BN's input too, but he seems to have have a feeling of proprietor-ship over the Fallout franchise. If Obsidian did this completely on their own, without such a thing as Bethesda and Fallout 3, I think he'd be worshipping Sawyer and Avellone now. That's just a hunch though. I generally like everything else he writes that has nothing at all to do with Bethesda. I'm a fanboi and he's a hater so it's to be expected.

I really shouldn't post in NMA threads, but I can't help myself :D I DO stay out of the bash Oblivion thread...
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
8,836
If Obsidian did this completely on their own, without such a thing as Bethesda and Fallout 3, I think he'd be worshipping Sawyer and Avellone now.

I'm right here, bro, no need to talk as if I'm not.

I've never worshiped a game developer. I doubt I ever shall, it's unprofessional nonsense for a game journalist to do so even if it is widely spread behavior. Also I don't think Avellone had that much to do with this title, and I appreciate Fenstermaker's contributions more. As for "without such a thing as", I do feel the engine is holding this game back. That's why I said so. No need to speculate. I don't think that's what you mean, but what I think you mean is such an unveiled, unsubstantiated insult I'd rather just ignore it.

Also I feel you might have missed something, which is that I'm not a Bethesda hater. Their games were never for me but don't confuse me with someone predisposed against Bethesda. My problem with Fallout 3 was what it was, not who made it.

I think that's enough talking about me, though. I'm not an interesting topic, and I'm not going to convince the people who want to believe I'm some kind of biased unthinking monstrosity on this topic otherwise, so jokes aside (coz it is funny), I'd rather leave off.

You lost me at tedious quests.

I'm sorry, I'm not following your counter here at all. Are you saying that the two quests I named aren't pure tedium design-wise?
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,558
I'm sorry, I'm not following your counter here at all. Are you saying that the two quests I named aren't pure tedium design-wise?

No, I didn't read your examples when I wrote that. Took me awhile to finish and you posted again before I did.

I agree those are somewhat tedious, but not nearly as bad as you say. The writing does make up a lot.

You never did answer my orignial question though. What is a good quest and how do you fill a whole rpg with them? I've yet to see it done ever. Even in Bloodlines. You still had your fedex quests, but like in Fallout the writing made up for it big time.

The quest where you get rid of the ghost in Bloodlines was excellent, but I can't see a game ever having quest after quest like that. I would love to see it, but doubt it'll ever happen. Just so much creativity can be squeezed out of a team at any given time ;) or so experience has led me to believe.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2007
Messages
5,347
Location
Taiwan
Also feel the need to state I mentioned Fenstermaker above because he did Vault 11. I'm reminded because skavenhorde brought up the ghost hotel in Bloodlines, and Vault 11 might be the best gaming experience I've had since that place.

No, I didn't read your examples when I wrote that. Took me awhile to finish and you posted again before I did.

Right, yeah, hence the confusion. Sorry.

I agree those are somewhat tedious, but not nearly as bad as you say. The writing does make up a lot.

Agreed. Return to Sender was just pure aaaargh but when I got to the ending I was all "huh, that's cool". Well-written, excellent voice acting. Thing is, the tedium only becomes worse no second playthrough, while the joy of reading becomes less. At least, for me.

What is a good quest and how do you fill a whole rpg with them?

You don't. Every RPG has filler. Trashmobs, dungeon crawls, FedEx, you name it. There's a tipping point somewhere where "it's too much". Obviously there's a lot of personal taste involved there. I felt Bloodlines went too far with its combat filler from the house-of-vamps onwards, but some argue sewers instead. I felt Dragon Age: Origins just threw endless trashmobs at you and it was never very interesting, but many disagree. And I feel that while some FedEx quests are inevitably, when New Vegas is asking me to follow the quest marker and pendle love-notes it's just going too far.

Debatable? Yes. But what seems debatable to me is the "too far" part, not the "these are FedEx filler quests". I might be way off here, but while I can certainly see people go "the writing and good quests easily make up for all the fedex quests", I don't know if I see people going "man these fedex quests are great" or even "New Vegas has a reasonable ratio of fedex quests". But maybe that's just me.

Especially on second playthrough it becomes kind of horrible. I don't want to overstate my case, but it does detract from the game.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,558
ALL rpg-quests are compositions of this basic quests:

1.) find/conquer an object (person, location, item…)
2.) destroy an object (person, location, item…)
3.) craft/assemble an item out of item 1,2, … n
4.) interact (speak, fumble …) with an object (person, location, item…)
5.) defend/escort an object (person, location, item …)
6.) deliver an object (person, item …)
7.) collect objects (items, persons …)
8.) reach level x of skill y
9.) choose factions, make choices, decide something
10.) get a reputation
;)
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
20,013
Location
Germany
The game is filled with fetch/deliver quests that are saved by strong writing. I'm on my second playthrough and I actually can't bring myself to do Return to Sender or the Still in the Dark quests again. They're too boring.

In the case of Return to Sender I agree to some extent. Imo, on a first playthrough the quest is great. Most of the quest itself is a mundane fed/ex (though it ends on a high note), yes, but it´s laid out in a way which pushes player towards exploration so he´s very likely to discover more points of interest in the process. Quite a few quests are designed this way and while I think it works great for the first playthrough, I can see how it can become a bit bothersome on subsequent ones, because this positive externality may become largely lost, especially if player has already explored everything on the first run.
I think that by then, it´s probably better not to concentrate on these too much and complete them in a more incidental manner.

In regards to Still in the Dark, I have to disagree though. First, there are many ways to obtain this quest, second, most of the locations you´re sent in contain their own quests and other quests lead to them as well. This leads, imo of course, to enough permutations to make completing the quest interesting enough even on replays.

The way quests incidentally lead to more quests or intertwine/cross with each other is imo one of the game´s main strengths, even though in its current state it´s not always absolutely airtight and sometimes can lead to bugged situations.
Also, personally I´d prefer the later game branching in the main quest to be cut more radically, I tried to play for all sides as long as possible and it did become a bit wonky towards the end.

I have to reluctantly agree that proportionately there is maybe a bit too much of the "travel across the map" simple fed/ex quests and it would be nice to have more quests completable mostly in one location, especially since most of these which are in the game boast good to brilliant quest design.
However, I don´t consider this shortcoming to be dramatic enough to pull New Vegas out of the great game category, because good amount of quite complex quests sporting multiple solutions, outcomes, taking sides and good writing, plus the above mentioned interconnectedness more than make up for it.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
2,437
Location
Prague
Please understand that I am poking fun and have no real disdain to Brother None. BN, I think you're entertaining even when I completely disagree.

BN- Quotes:

Just like I don't want to see a person that's passionate about butchering at an operating table, I don't want to see a person that's passionate about Oblivion working on Fallout 3.

Next cRPG? Uh, not to bug you or anything, but Bethesda hasn't actually ever made a game that could fairly be labelled "a cRPG". TES is a hack 'n slash dungeoncrawl series. Was from the beginning.

ZeniMax purchased Bethesda, bullied out Christopher Weaver and made a studio that created Arena/Daggerfall into a studio that produces Oblivion.

It looks as if someone peripherally interested in the Fallout games took a few core elements that they liked and made a game out of it without really respecting the old game, deeply researching what made the old games tick or even trying to please the old but still very alive fanbase. It is as if they took some Fallout flavour and sprinkled it over what "they [Bethesda] do best."”

Nut's crazy reasoning:
Hmmm, I don't know why your posts make me think you don't like Bethesda...Silly me!
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
8,836
Back
Top Bottom