I'm not sure if there's an agreed-upon definition of what a "traditional RPG" is, and I certainly don't think there's any way of knowing how the majority feels.
RPG Codex - Warren Spector Interview
- Thread starter Couchpotato
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I'm not sure if there's an agreed-upon definition of what a "traditional RPG" is, and I certainly don't think there's any way of knowing how the majority feels.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
The only hard evidence we have are sales numbers. If they go up, more people may be happy (or feel screwed over) 
S
Sacred_Path
Guest
The only hard evidence we have are sales numbers. If they go up, more people may be happy (or feel screwed over)
The sad thing is, we don't have sales numbers. There has been no deep hardcore RPG with AAA production values in the last 13 years that I'm aware of. So we can't say if there's a market for that or not.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
We do have sales numbers for what has sold, though. And there is a market for that.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
Which would be cool if you could extrapolate from that what people would buy and wouldn't. Which you can't.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Sure you can, every heard of partial derivatives and sensitivity analyses?
But we would welcome you plunking down a few million on a AAA dev team with marching orders to make a hardcore RPG, and then see if you win that bet.
We already did that with Obsidian and Project Eternity. Of course one data point doesn't prove much. But a few more would help.
But we would welcome you plunking down a few million on a AAA dev team with marching orders to make a hardcore RPG, and then see if you win that bet.
We already did that with Obsidian and Project Eternity. Of course one data point doesn't prove much. But a few more would help.
S
Sacred_Path
Guest
If A sells well there is a chance that something like A will also sell well. You have no idea whatsoever how well something that's not A will sell. It's not rocket science.
It does indeed come down to money. I'm somewhat sympathetic towards those people who are juggling the money in this industry, especially as the sums are increasing. I don't have any personal hard feeling towards people who just want to make some bucks. But subscribing to the logic that they use to justify their adversirty to risk when you're not on their payroll makes you seem a bit tardy.
I will share with you one prophetic insight. The years is 2020, and the movie version of the Silmarillion has just broken all opening records evar:
"We realized that there are tons of people who love Tolkien's works. We thought that, you know, why not offer them a virtual form of this world on their PC's, or at least a similar world. We also realized that they would want to be somehow represented in this world in whatever form they choose, and they'd also want to have an influence on this world in some way. So, we added attributes and skills. People who love Tolkien also with some probability like to read, so we wanted a lot of dialogue with at least minor literary quality. Lastly, the production values had to be high, as we could deduce from other succesful fantasy offerings. There's a reason why all Tolkien movies or even Harry Potter weren't filmed in someone's basement using shakycam. People want an escape to fictional worlds, but it has to be done in some style. It all seems quite obvious now, but we must indeed be pretty brilliant, seeing as we are the first to have done so."
And we will be buried knee deep in RPG's. Herp.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
You need to stop thinking in black and white. If something with more hardcore RPG elements (but not a full fledged RPG) sells better than something similar but without those elements, then that tells you a hardcore RPG may do better. But this still involves some risk. And the publishers are terribly risk adverse. They don't want to take even small risks. So they don't bother.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
And you need to start thinking in practical/ realistic terms.
What examples do you have of games that are like hardcore RPG's but aren't really hardcore RPG's? You can try to dissect the genre but that doesn't really work, but hey, let's try. Diablo has stats and magic items. Starcraft has different playable races.
Ergo, ergo, therefore, etc.: Diablo + Starcraft = TEH CASH. Except that wouldn't be a traditional RPG.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Now you are just being idiotic, as expected. Those are bad examples. Look at Dark Souls for a better example.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
You're missing the point. A game like Dark Souls can be expected to sell like Dark Souls, hypothetically. It's not an indication of how a traditional RPG would sell, only an indication that certain RPG elements (like stat growth and item hunting) are acceptable to a certain share of the market.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
I disagree, hardcore RPG elements selling well in a non-RPG indicate they may sell well in a hardcore RPG that has more of them. It's a fairly easy concept, but it's not black and white, which is all you seem to be satisfied by.
S
Sacred_Path
Guest
How would you convince a suit that your target audience loves to read, and especially enjoys dialogue trees with choice and consequence? What games would you cite to sell your idea? More importantly, how would you bridge the gap between this one element and all the other elements that a game would have to have to be considered a traditional RPG?
Thrasher
Wheeee!
So hard core means big dialogue trees with choice and consequences for you? Well that's just one of many… But let's look at this one example, anyway.
Dead Money DLC for FONV. There's a lot of dialogue trees, and some interesting consequences from it. It's so subtle and tricky that a lot of people, even people who have played it multiple times, are unaware of it.
Did it sell well? Don't know. But a lot of people on the forums hated the challenge of it. I think that's a general trend. Most people don't want to think too hard when they game. They want to run through DLC as fast as possible without thinking. They are not interested in trying out different dialogue paths to see if it will solve some problems. It's that kind of mentality that keeps us from getting AAA hardcore RPGs ala Torment…
Dead Money DLC for FONV. There's a lot of dialogue trees, and some interesting consequences from it. It's so subtle and tricky that a lot of people, even people who have played it multiple times, are unaware of it.
Did it sell well? Don't know. But a lot of people on the forums hated the challenge of it. I think that's a general trend. Most people don't want to think too hard when they game. They want to run through DLC as fast as possible without thinking. They are not interested in trying out different dialogue paths to see if it will solve some problems. It's that kind of mentality that keeps us from getting AAA hardcore RPGs ala Torment…
S
Sacred_Path
Guest
Heavy Rain was all about choices, and it sold very well. Not necessarily all of them had you think hard, but it's no different from traditional RPG's in this regard - Arcanum, for example.