And it's supposed that this devolution has a causal coherence with the alleged evolution of romances?
I don't mind negative responses. I mind reasoning that imho isn't justified.
BioWare - Building a Better Romance
- Thread starter Couchpotato
- Start date
There's no "alleged" evolution here. Anyone who's been with Bioware since the old days can see how romance as a feature has steadily increased in prominence with them.
D
DArtagnan
Guest
What? I didn't say that. I'm not anti-romance and I don't think the "evolution" of romances in BW games is because they suck in other ways. I'm anti-bad writing, and Bioware have never really been good writers AFAIK. Baldur's Gate has crap writing for the most part, imo.
But when I was younger, I was easier to please - and, for instance, I was quite taken with the writing in KotOR given that it was a game.
Since it's been more than 10 years, I can't really speak to the writing today. Standards for game writing was a lot lower back then, and gameplay was king - even for Bioware.
For some reason, it seems Bioware is much more about writing today - and since it's so weak, that's probably why it stands out so much to me and others.
But I'd say writing is the least of their problems when it comes to catching the hearts of core gamers.
Yes, but you have to rationalise why it's not justified. Otherwise, you appear to be dismissing arguments simply because you don't like them.
I understand what you're saying in principle, as in you don't think romances are a bad thing in an objective sense. I completely agree.
But the point seems to be that Bioware can't write a good romance - so focusing on them is not a smart or desirable state of affairs.
Hey mate, I agree with you!
Hope you don't mind this silliness below
Simulated Romance, a Very Bad Comedy Attempt by me:
Bioware approach, paragon: touchingly s*ck off DArtagnan
Bioware approach, renegade: have S&M fun with DAtagnan
Troika additions: snort coke together then bang DArtagnan
Lionhead additions: sex with DArtagnan and introduce your *other* sexmate to him.
JRPG approach: touchingly look at each other for 5 minutes while feathers falling, sing some pop song together by the lake, then commit suicide. Afterwards (!), go save the world.
The preferred approach: shake hands with DArtagnan
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No CD Projekt addition? I was looking forward to collecting a DArtagnan sex card.
Er...on second thought...
Er...on second thought...
Of course you din't say that - that's why I used "it's supposed", not "you suppose".
I'm just trying to understand why especially romances get so much hate in comparison to other features that are designed badly as well. Or is this a misconception on my part?
Well, Bioware is not a person and doesn't write things. The employees write things. And perhaps the employees might improve or even get exchanged.
I agree that it has been done poorly in the past… but I think that it can be improved. If Bioware can and will… who knows?
lostforever
SasqWatch
Wow, what a brilliant retort. His argument was "stupid".
Well I did explain the why :lol:
But this is the also the argument for romances in game too but he he denying this in his first post!
D
DArtagnan
Guest
Of course you din't say that - that's why I used "it's supposed", not "you suppose".
You also asked me, suggesting it was something I agreed with.
That would be the point I made and have been supporting, yeah.
Wow, you're kidding, right?
Here I was thinking it was some kind of machine programmed by God or some other machine. I had NO idea people were involved.
Thing of it is that I've never seen Bioware writing that I would consider good when it comes to NPC interaction. They're pretty good with lore, though.
Ok, I did like HK-47 - but that's an anomaly, really, and I was young and impressionable.
The two things are very, very different. Lore is more about consistency and detail - where human interaction (or something humans can relate to) demands insight into the human mind or some kind of psychological understanding. This is where Bioware fails utterly - though I'm not sure if it's on purpose or not.
I mean, they could be deliberately targeting teenagers looking for nothing but a power fantasy. It's feasible.
Their games feel like average Hollywood movies when it comes to characters and character interaction. Let it be known that I consider the average Hollywood movie script abysmal and excessively far removed from real human behavior.
I honestly don't care who at Bioware focus on characters, though I can't help but be aware of Gaider and a few others.
I know that you aren't "anti-romance", so indeed I didn't mean you but the general public.
Right, it might likley be that Bioware keeps stuff like that plain and simple for not to overexert a certain target audience.
And for sure it's my fault as well to again have started a discussion like this in a Bioware thread, but I want to clarify that in fact my thoughts aren't targeted at Bioware games in special, but at RPGs in general.
Great post. My "inner cynic" says that gamers of today are pursueing only brutality in "modern" RPGs, and as long as if it contains gore, blood, brutality and dark colours, it's PERFECT, according to them. That's what my "inner cynic" says.
And he adds :
"Romances ? Unmanly. And therefore trash."
Have they really increased in prominence? There was more love interests in BG2 than in KoTOR, NWN, Jade Empire and ME1. It have the same amount has DAO and DA2 (4).
DAI will have more because the team want to give representation and choices to everyone (has in male, female, gay, lesbian, bisexual). That requires more than 4 characters to achieve.
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Hexprone
Thou hast lost an eighth!
This falsehood right here. I stood on the street outside my apartment for a solid fifteen minutes yesterday, and nothing.
I actually enjoy the idiotic Bioware romances. But the companion dialogues in Fallout: New Vegas really struck me in how much more in-depth the connection with the characters felt when it wasn't all "Can I get action from these guys? [No/Maybe/Yes]". Apparently the decision to exclude romance in that game was made for budget reasons, not design principles -- but the results make it look like the kind of limitation that helps a writer come up with more interesting material.
How many previews of BG2 were there prior to its release that focused on romance? How many interviews where romance was the topic?
That's more down to the focus of the media than developers/writers though. The whole debate about romances and the incredible amount of focus it gets is laughable. The situation is the same as always: Say no and it's over for the entire duration of the game. That was the case in BG2, ME1, DA1 and it will certainly be the case in DA3 as well.
Thread after thread, article after article about such a tiny feature that's so easy to completely ignore is flat out silly. It's completely blown out of proportions.
What does that have to do with BioWare?
They don't ask the questions that get asked in those interviews. They don't write the previews about their games. They don't even start the romance threads on their own forums and barely interact in it nor are they the ones who make each and every character threads resolve around romance.
Fans are still talking about Viconia, Jaheira, Aeries and her baby. BioWare not so much.
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Yeah, and the reason the questions get asked is to create clicks on a website. That's why BOOBS!!! get covered all the time in the tabloids, but in more serious media like BBC News? Not so much.
I guess Dave Gaider doesn't work for Bioware then.
You're pretty naive if you believe Bioware has nothing to do with the interviews they're involved in.
Crilloan
Sentinel
This is not true at all. I can't find a sexy elven chick if I leave my lair and get a life! Also I can't find the next best thing as well, not many women want to dress up as sexy elven chick as well
I would say that the chances of getting missus dressed up like a hot elven chick is close to nil :-(
As mentioned above, I like romances in game when done well.
if you get rid of romances you might as well get rid of crafting etc.
And believe me, a fistfight is not properly represented in the absolute majority of games!
C
You really believe that BioWare write down the questions and tell the interviewer to ask them? The only thing the dev do is "I can't answer/no comments" to things they don't want to talk about. That even include romance questions, might I add.
Also, I really doubt that Gaider would make people ask him question about romance when all his twitter answers to romance questions are made of snark. Lots of snark.
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Fluffyhotep
Watchdog
Absolutely. The romances completely passed me by in Baldur's Gate I and II. Same with KotOR. First time I experienced a BioWare romance was in Jade Empire, and it totally took me by surprise, i.e. before I knew it 'my' character ended up in the sack with another character. I consciously had to avoid certain romances in DA:O and DA:I, but the 'signalling' was more obvious, so I recognised the paths that would lead to awkward virtual pseudo-sex earlier.
The whole romance thing got a whole lot 'stickier' and more obnoxious and in my face, at least in my experience, even if the number of potential 'romances' hasn´t increased significantly.