So disappointed I could cry

pibbur who · April 8, 2015

DArtagnan said:
Experience has demonstrated that this model works well for added profit - and consumers are, as always, painfuly slow in the uptake, so it takes years to learn how to respond to the new ways of being exploited. By the time they're ready to postpone their purchase - suits will have ten new ways lined up. They'll also have the marketing speeches ready, just like they did with the DLC model: "Now it's a service, and you can simply choose if you want more content of whatever size."

Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Expansions aren't new, and for many games an expansion was more or less the rule, and no surprise, unless the original game (like U8) sold poorly.

pibbur who may very well misunderstand the musketeer, but who still claims that he is able to choose whether to buy the expansion or not

DArtagnan · April 8, 2015

Morrandir said:
I couldn't care less if tit is called *pass or pre-order. If their announcement is correct (which I have no reason to doubt as they've always been honest) we get 30 hours of content for 25 €. That's ok.

As I've already said in the news thread for me it's important if these expansions can be played after the main game, both technically and logically (considering the plot). Does anyone know more here?
If that's not the case I most likely won't buy the expansions on release but in ~2 years when I'll perhaps replay the main game.
Waiting until Q1 2016 with the first TW3 playthrough seems to be a too tough decision for me…

How often do you go back to a 200 hour game you've just completed with a maxed out character - just to do 20-30 hours of new side-quests, though?

I don't know about you, but that kind of content needs to be there when I do the full playthrough.

DArtagnan · April 8, 2015

pibbur who said:
Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Expansions aren't new, and for many games an expansion was more or less the rule, and no surprise, unless the original game (like U8) sold poorly.

Expansions aren't, no - in fact, they're extinct. But it used to be that expansions were released 1-2 years after release, and they added significantly BOTH in terms of pure content and expanded mechanics, usually adding new classes/powers/whatever.

Used to be it wasn't just stuff made in an editor before release, then polished up and playtested for added profit a few months later. How many expansions were announced before game release with specifics regarding playtime back in the day?

I'm sure you remember, you're not THAT old

Not saying ALL expansions were great like that - but a lot of them were. I don't know about you, but aside from the exceedingly rare exceptions like for MMOs or the Diablo 3 expansion, can you honestly say you consider piecemeal DLCs as significant for our favorite games as the expansions we saw 5-10+ years ago?

pibbur who may very well misunderstand the musketeer, but who still claims that he is able to choose whether to buy the expansion or not

How do you buy that which does not exist?

Morrandir · April 8, 2015

DArtagnan said:
How often do you go back to a 200 hour game you've just completed with a maxed out character - just to do 20-30 hours of new side-quests, though?

I don't know if I've ever played a 200 hour RPG at all.

I don't know about you, but that kind of content needs to be there when I do the full playthrough.

I agree that it's better when it's there during the full play through. But for me the challenge (in combat) isn't that important, so I would enjoy the expansions with a maxed out character even if combat would be too easy.
As I've said only if the plot's logic allows doing them afterwards.

JDR13 · April 8, 2015

I'll be long finished with TW3 by the time Oct rolls around, but I have enough faith in CDP to purchase the expansions for a replay.

DArtagnan · April 8, 2015

My problem isn't challenge, it's that I'm usually done being intrigued by new stuff long before the 200 hours is up. I find that I'm initially fascinated by possibilities and I will start out longing to explore every inch of that delightfully new world.

But when you're so many hours into it, and you know almost everything there is to know about mechanics, gameplay and you've seen a hundred caves/dungeons and so on - I feel it's time to finish it and end it properly. I never EVER manage or truly desire to explore a world that big in its entirety.

Going back after 200 hours of TW3, like this, would be like watching a new 20 minute ending in Return of the King. As in, you're not really getting 30 hours of "new game" - you're getting 30 hours of more of the same. As great as that "same" is, it's not like it would be if it was 30 hours of something really new.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels like that?

pibbur who · April 8, 2015

@Dart: Yes, of course I agree that the typical small DLC's aren't comparable to to the good old expansions back then - as I remember them. Some DLC's are comparable methinks, like the two big ones for Skyrim, those you mentioned. And this one if it turns out like they say it will.

But, yes, the small ones doesn't add much, and seems mostly like a way of getting more money out of the customer, especially if there are many of them. Still, I buy the occasional one when it adds to my immersion.

pibbur who claims that he will be able to choose whether to buy the expansion or not. When it's released.

Lemonhead · April 8, 2015

I like that there will be 2 expansions. I like that they will be substantial. But I really dislike that they are jumping on some sort of DLC band wagon and calling it a season pass or whatever. It just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I thought CDR were more in touch with their consumer base which is (used to be?) mostly PC gamers who like RPGs but detest DLC schemes? A lot of hard core fans will probably hate the wording of this scheme but in the end like the content. I guess risking some backlash from their loyal customers is worth it to cater to their new intended target: the mass market console crowd.

JDR13 · April 8, 2015

Nah, I pretty much feel the exact same way. That's why I don't get how some people can replay something immediately after finishing it the first time. I usually wait until the following year at least before replaying something or else I tend to feel burned-out no matter how good the original playthrough might have been.

DArtagnan · April 8, 2015

pibbur who said:
@Dart: Yes, of course I agree that the typical small DLC's aren't comparable to to the good old expansions back then - as I remember them. Some DLC's are comparable methinks, like the two big ones for Skyrim, those you mentioned. And this one if it turns out like they say it will.

But, yes, the small ones doesn't add much, and seems mostly like a way of getting more money out of the customer, especially if there are many of them. Still, I buy the occasional one when it adds to my immersion.

pibbur who claims that he will be able to choose whether to buy the expansion or not. When it's released.

Yes, you will be able to choose. Once again, the point is that this new "choice" is totally inferior to the choice in the past - and the marketing speak for how DLCs are your friend and represent better consumer control - THAT is the illusion. The illusion of control or a "better" choice, if you will.

Of course, you need to really think about this kind of thing to realise you're being exploited

How so? Because the suits have managed to make you happy about a choice that represents an inferior consumer experience than such a choice used to be.

It's complicated to some, I suppose.

pibbur who · April 8, 2015

Lemonhead;1061316708…their consumer base which is (used to be?) mostly PC gamers who like RPGs but detest DLC schemes?….[/QUOTE said:
Out of curiosity: How do you know that?

pibbur who doesn't.

EDIT: Just saw the question mark at the end of the statement. Which probably makes this post meaningless, and I ought to delete it.

sakichop · April 8, 2015

DArtagnan said:
Well, that, or I could just make my skip-it "choice" that I'm sure Sakichop thinks is consumer power - and probably miss out on great content in a game I'm not unlikely to fall in love with. Yeah, that's a wonderful business model - and a proper meaty expansion 1-2 years later was much worse, Saki

Consumer power?

Do people really think I'm upset about this? I thought it was pretty obvious I was joking. I have no problem with it at all.

All I said seriously is that I'd probably wait to buy because after 200 hours of Geralt I don't know that I'd want 30 more.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

DArtagnan · April 8, 2015

sakichop said:
Consumer power?

Do people really think I'm upset about this? I thought it was pretty obvious I was joking. I have no problem with it at all.

Upset? Quite the contrary - it must be great as you don't mind this kind of model

All I said seriously is that I'd probably wait to buy because after 200 hours of Geralt I don't know that I'd want 30 more.

Oh, I agree with you there.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Most likely, but I guess I bring that upon myself. I'm not easy to understand it seems.

Nah, I was just messing with you - as you seem to be a supporter of the DLC/pass model in general.

Maybe I'm wrong?

In any case, it's nothing serious. I just like to tease people when they're being silly

sakichop · April 8, 2015

DArtagnan said:
Upset? Quite the contrary - it must be great as you don't mind this kind of model

Oh, I agree with you there.

Most likely, but I guess I bring that upon myself. I'm not easy to understand it seems.

Nah, I was just messing with you - as you seem to be a supporter of the DLC/pass model in general.

Maybe I'm wrong?

In any case, it's nothing serious. I just like to tease people when they're being silly

No problem, I have no problem taking it as well as dishing it out.

I just didn't understand what you were saying.

I wouldn't say I'm a supporter just indifferent. I just think some people really blow it out of proportion but of course I would since it doesn't bother me at all.

To me though, I would think DLC to be counter productive for dev's and publishers. In my case it has changed me from a habitual pre-order consumer to a wait for all the content to be released consumer. I can't think that losing pre-orders and day one purchases was what they wanted when the started making DLC. They are still doing it with no signs of slowing down though so the dollars must be making good sense.

As I said though i don't really care, I'm a patient person ( usually)so I can wait.

Besides I have a thriving business, a wonderful wife and great kids. Can I really be bothered to sweat the small stuff.

( small to me anyhow.)

DArtagnan · April 8, 2015

sakichop said:
No problem, I have no problem taking it as well as dishing it out.I just didn't understand what you were saying.

I wouldn't say I'm a supporter just indifferent. I just think some people really blow it out of proportion but of course I would since it doesn't bother me at all.

To me though, I would think DLC to be counter productive for dev's and publishers. In my case it has changed me from a habitual pre-order consumer to a wait for all the content to be released consumer. I can't think that losing pre-orders and day one purchases was what they wanted when the started making DLC. They are still doing it with no signs of slowing down though so the dollars must be making good sense.

As I said though i don't really care, I'm a patient person ( usually)so I can wait.

Besides I have a thriving business, a wonderful wife and great kids. Can I really be bothered to sweat the small stuff. ( small to me anyhow.)

I don't sweat much at all

To me, pointing out issues and negatives is not really sweating over them. It's more the matter of appreciating they're there. I prefer to do that, rather than "pretending" they're not there, as I know is how a lot of people do it. I assume that's one way to achieve a comfortable mindset.

Then again, I've been through things in my life that makes me excel at compartmentalising my emotions. I can sort of turn them off at will, though I don't always succeed. It just takes something other than games and discussions about games to trigger a powerful (and usually irrational) response. Well, usually

In this case, I agree that they're being counterproductive in a long term sense, as I said. People will eventually grow sick and tired of this game - and they'll just wait longer to buy.

But I personally don't have the slightest doubt that the current standard of DLC/"expansion" content represents inferior quality to what we once had - and that's because it's simply too tempting - thinking like a suit - to trivialise and minimise development effort and instead focus on clever marketing schemes or exploit the impulve-driven mindset.

If you're a suit out to maximise profit, there's really no alternative - because if you are, you will feel compelled to generate shorter term profit. That's what looks good to the shareholders and it's what looks good to the outside world, because the world revolves around money.

As such, I don't really blame the suits - I just find it unfortunate we've elected to let the world revolve around money.

wiretripped · April 9, 2015

I was planning on waiting for the inevitable EE anyway, so. I'm excited for Witcher 3, but I can hold off... My backlog is huge and I need a new rig anyway to run it.

Lemonhead · April 9, 2015

pibbur who said:
Out of curiosity: How do you know that?

pibbur who doesn't.

EDIT: Just saw the question mark at the end of the statement. Which probably makes this post meaningless, and I ought to delete it.

Yeah, it was just a guess. I don't even know if it can qualify as an educated guess. Most likely not.

Drithius · April 9, 2015

I was going to replay TW2 to experience the other half of Chapter 2. And then I moved on.

For every person who revisits a game for a second playthrough, there's another hundred who just don't bother for one reason or another. Hell, I think I've only played Wizardry 8 twice and that deserves a helluva lot more replay than any Witcher game.

And, Lemon, at 10 hours, I think the Hearts of Stone DLC will be anything but substantial. Substantial for an FPS maybe.

Alrik Fassbauer · April 11, 2015

"Season Pass" = Kickstarter 0.5 ?

Through an "Season Pass people are kind of ... "backing" something in advance ... Similar to backing an Kickstarter.

Elel · April 22, 2015

Unless these explansions are completely separate from the main game (like Hords of Underdark for NWN1), which I doubt, I could cry, indeed. I know now that if I buy TW3 after its release, I will never play these 30 hours of content. And I CAN'T replay games because of 30 hours of new content, I have a life to live!!! So it's either wait until 2016 staying away from all dicussions to avoid spoilers or put up with knowing that I'm going to have an incomplete experience.

I hate this DLC model with genuine fury. Thank you, devs, for having me abstain from playing your game for one year more after its release.

At least in the past we sometimes had true expansions that didn't require replaying whole games, because they weren't directly tied in to them and acted more like sequels or even standalone games (SoZ).

So disappointed I could cry

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