To feel be guided and too easy, sort of disappointment of the investigation mechanism, take it with spice, it's only a vague remembering. What's solved in first town is what you have to do next.
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What ever happened to RPG games
- Thread starter CelticFrost
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DoctorNarrative
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When you played U7 doesn't matter, I don't think you're getting my point (and neither did Dart, so maybe I am not explaining it well). The point is that what you enjoy is colored by your own experience... this is not a gaming only thing, it is a life thing. The women you find attractive, the food you like, the music you like, the games you like... it all boils down to the formative experiences you had. In sociology we call it structuralism and it is by far the dominant theory to explain human behavior and preferences in today's research.
Even your very first RPG experiences were colored by personality tendencies you picked up before that from other media and real life experiences. How much patience you have, how interested in narrative you are, your enjoyment of reading, etc. etc. To deny you are a creation of experience is to be largely naive to how society and experience effects you. Think of it as experience points and skill trees!
Think of it this way: if you were 21 and 5 years ago for your 16th birthday you were given an Xbox and Oblivion, and that was your first RPG experience, do you really think Ultima 7 would be as amazing to you right now? Judging by your past comments I have a feeling you will say yes, and I just cannot describe effectively how wrong I think that answer would be.
Agree to disagree I guess, though.
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DoctorNarrative
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I don't agree. You are conditioned by society and those people you interact with from the day you are born. A popular example in sociology is that the day you are born you get either a blue blanket or a pink blanket, depending on your gender. From that moment on you are at least partially a social construct.
Now there is the theory of fundamentalism, that you are who you are regardless of influence, but it's not a very popular theory in today's academic world. That doesn't mean I wouldn't respect your opinion if you were a fundamentalist, it just means it's not a very popular theory right now. Of course you can believe in some kind of mixture, but even then as soon as you look at your personality and persona as being socialized by experience and relationships you are admitting there is no core you that made the decision to like X game or Y game without influence.
I'm not trying to remove your identity or devalue your individuality. I personally look at myself as still being me, a unique person, because no two people can share the exact same experience and socialization over time, it's impossible.
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As I said earlier, it's obvious that you truly believe what you're saying, and that's fine. You limit yourself in assuming that everyone reacts to things the same way though, and you also seem to ignore any points made that don't coincide with your theory. We'll just go with your suggestion about agreeing to disagree.
D
DArtagnan
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Oh, I subscribe to that theory myself - but it's so fuzzy and unfounded that I have nothing but my vague ideas of how it might work.
Still, we're not talking about societal conditioning - as we were specifically talking about games and how what you've played in the past will condition you to like that in the future - almost as an exclusive. At least, that's what I get based on your insistence of it in your exchanges with JDR.
That's what I'm saying is very far from the only explanation as to why you like something.
I don't think anyone has any kind of definitive idea of these things, so I just declare myself ignorant. I can't "believe" in something without more evidence.
I do have a "feeling" which is that the environment has more to do with who people are than anything else. Just as long as it's understood that "environment" is everything from the atmosphere in your mother's womb to being sexually assaulted by your uncle.
I don't think you're trying to remove that
I just think you're wrong about what you've been saying about gaming and how the past is almighty in the nostalgic way.
Not entirely wrong, though - and you do have good points.
DoctorNarrative
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Judging by JDR's last post I still don't think I am expressing it correctly anyway. The core of what I am trying to say is that preference is always influenced by experience. You will always like "good games" but what you consider good is shaped and formed by your previous experience not just in games, but in life.
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GothicGothicness
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Well, whatever a game is good or bad is a matter of taste.
However whatever it is dumbed down or not is fact. So it is two different discussions.
Go to the workshop ( where quest marker is ) enter it. Put the metal bar down and use the hammer on the anvil ( this will be automatically done if you walk close enough ), put the finished weapon which was just made into the water bucket ( walk close to the bucket with where the arrow indicator is ).
It is a fact this is more dumbed down than.
No instructions at all.. figure out yourself how to make a weapon.
So what is there to discuss? There is no doubt these modern games are more dumbed down. The environment might affect whatever you like dumbed down games or not. But there is no doubt they are dumbed down.
However whatever it is dumbed down or not is fact. So it is two different discussions.
Go to the workshop ( where quest marker is ) enter it. Put the metal bar down and use the hammer on the anvil ( this will be automatically done if you walk close enough ), put the finished weapon which was just made into the water bucket ( walk close to the bucket with where the arrow indicator is ).
It is a fact this is more dumbed down than.
No instructions at all.. figure out yourself how to make a weapon.
So what is there to discuss? There is no doubt these modern games are more dumbed down. The environment might affect whatever you like dumbed down games or not. But there is no doubt they are dumbed down.
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Of course preferences are influenced by past experience, nobody is denying that. The issue is the insinuation that people are incapable of objectively judging something because of it.
I was thinking about what you wrote here. Then I thought about my very first experiences with video and computer games when they first started hitting the consumer markets in the latter half of the 70s. I wonder, based on what you say, how I managed to distinguish between 'good' video/computer games from 'bad' ones.
I remember really disliking pong (and other early videogames I got with my Christmas of 1979 atari 2600) but really liking Ultima 1. But at that time, I had no prior experiences with video/computer games.
It has nothing to do with nostalgia. It's a FACT: in the "old" days, whether it's the 80s, early 90s or even early 00s, RPGs and games in general focused on GAMEPLAY.
But in the last 10 years or so, as graphics and processor horsepower improved by a ridiculous amount, games started getting more and more bogged down in presentation. A few still screen shots with text gave way to short animated scenes which then gave way to games filled with HOURS of cutscenes.
Now it's not only good enough to be in full 3D but you have to have the latest shaders, ultra-realistic backgrounds and character movement, everything has to be HD and special effects must burst out of every seam.
Same with voice overs. So much is spent on recording hours and hours of dialgoue, not to mention hiring widely recognized actors.
So what happens? So many resources are spent on things that in the long run don't matter THAT much. Sure, I love fully voiced games but I haven't forgotten how to READ! Sure, I love realism and detail and purty images but not every game has to look like FF XIII or Mass Effect 2.
I'd take a good looking game with tons of gameplay content and elements than a phenomenal looking game that is shallow and simplistic.
You can blame the console market for doing so well and for PC game developers for wanting to tap into that market. Because of that Oblivion was even more dumbed down and "consolized" than Morrowind. Because of that we got the garbage that was Jade Empire and Mass Effect.
ME grew on me and I'm loving ME2 but only because I view it more as console action/adventure type game than an RPG. And because of the success of these western action/RPG hybrids it seems even a giant like SquEnix has to play the "dumb down" game because in their mind the "kids" want beautiful graphics and repetetive fast paced action games. So now, not only have we lost true PC/Western style RPGs but we may not see hardcore console/Japanese style RPGs again. We're stuck with these terrible hybrids that appeal to gamers with very short attention spans and itchy fingers.
But in the last 10 years or so, as graphics and processor horsepower improved by a ridiculous amount, games started getting more and more bogged down in presentation. A few still screen shots with text gave way to short animated scenes which then gave way to games filled with HOURS of cutscenes.
Now it's not only good enough to be in full 3D but you have to have the latest shaders, ultra-realistic backgrounds and character movement, everything has to be HD and special effects must burst out of every seam.
Same with voice overs. So much is spent on recording hours and hours of dialgoue, not to mention hiring widely recognized actors.
So what happens? So many resources are spent on things that in the long run don't matter THAT much. Sure, I love fully voiced games but I haven't forgotten how to READ! Sure, I love realism and detail and purty images but not every game has to look like FF XIII or Mass Effect 2.
I'd take a good looking game with tons of gameplay content and elements than a phenomenal looking game that is shallow and simplistic.
You can blame the console market for doing so well and for PC game developers for wanting to tap into that market. Because of that Oblivion was even more dumbed down and "consolized" than Morrowind. Because of that we got the garbage that was Jade Empire and Mass Effect.
ME grew on me and I'm loving ME2 but only because I view it more as console action/adventure type game than an RPG. And because of the success of these western action/RPG hybrids it seems even a giant like SquEnix has to play the "dumb down" game because in their mind the "kids" want beautiful graphics and repetetive fast paced action games. So now, not only have we lost true PC/Western style RPGs but we may not see hardcore console/Japanese style RPGs again. We're stuck with these terrible hybrids that appeal to gamers with very short attention spans and itchy fingers.
To throw in my perspective here, I started out as a teenager playing early JRPGs (which emulated early CRPGs to some extent) on consoles. I enjoyed them for the stories, characterization and exploration, but also generally found them to be really repetitive in a lot of aspects.
Ultima 7 was my first CRPG and honestly to this day it is still my favorite and I personally consider it the best. Note that it wasn't the first RPG I played. I played the first Final Fantasy (before it become one long cinema scene which EA & Bioware seem to be trying to emulate these days), Phantasy Star, Dragon Warrior etc. I suppose you could say I was conditioned to like those but I think what they did is give me an idea of what I liked and what I didn't. When I Ultima 7 came along it gave me personally a lot of what I liked and little of what I didn't.
I think most RPGs that came before it were 90% fighting and 10% dialog and exploration. Ultima 7 turned that on it's head and gave me 90% dialog, questing and exploration with 10% fighting. The fighting was very streamlined so that it pretty much happened automatically and it was short and sweet. Since I always liked combat the least in RPGs and found it tedious and repetitive this was a plus for me. Having said that, if someone really enjoys combat, stats and numbers in an RPG this may not be the game for them.
What it also did for me is provide a living breathing world where everyone who resided in it was unique, had different things to say and went about their business regardless of what I did. They didn't just sit around and wait for me or spout the same two lines that the guy next to them did. There were also choices to be made and consequences.
I also like that the story was subtle. It wasn't some save the world from an evil wizard cliche. When you start off initially it even seems like everything is more or less going okay in the world and that is intentional. You have to uncover what's going on, who is behind it and why. You also have freedom to go anywhere and pretty much do whatever you want.
For me personally, whatever the reason U7 was just sort of the pinnacle of an RPG. As with all good things, someone usually comes along and messes it up sooner or later and that someone was EA.
Ironically, the RPG I've enjoyed most in recent years is Dragon Age Origins and guess what? EA strikes again. *sigh*
I liked the Elder Scrolls games and I think they do a great job of world simulation on the macro level providing beautiful or strange worlds to wander around in, but on the micro level they are pretty bad at characterization and dialog and their npcs have about as much personality as a cardboard cutout.
Ultima 7 was my first CRPG and honestly to this day it is still my favorite and I personally consider it the best. Note that it wasn't the first RPG I played. I played the first Final Fantasy (before it become one long cinema scene which EA & Bioware seem to be trying to emulate these days), Phantasy Star, Dragon Warrior etc. I suppose you could say I was conditioned to like those but I think what they did is give me an idea of what I liked and what I didn't. When I Ultima 7 came along it gave me personally a lot of what I liked and little of what I didn't.
I think most RPGs that came before it were 90% fighting and 10% dialog and exploration. Ultima 7 turned that on it's head and gave me 90% dialog, questing and exploration with 10% fighting. The fighting was very streamlined so that it pretty much happened automatically and it was short and sweet. Since I always liked combat the least in RPGs and found it tedious and repetitive this was a plus for me. Having said that, if someone really enjoys combat, stats and numbers in an RPG this may not be the game for them.
What it also did for me is provide a living breathing world where everyone who resided in it was unique, had different things to say and went about their business regardless of what I did. They didn't just sit around and wait for me or spout the same two lines that the guy next to them did. There were also choices to be made and consequences.
I also like that the story was subtle. It wasn't some save the world from an evil wizard cliche. When you start off initially it even seems like everything is more or less going okay in the world and that is intentional. You have to uncover what's going on, who is behind it and why. You also have freedom to go anywhere and pretty much do whatever you want.
For me personally, whatever the reason U7 was just sort of the pinnacle of an RPG. As with all good things, someone usually comes along and messes it up sooner or later and that someone was EA.
Ironically, the RPG I've enjoyed most in recent years is Dragon Age Origins and guess what? EA strikes again. *sigh*
I liked the Elder Scrolls games and I think they do a great job of world simulation on the macro level providing beautiful or strange worlds to wander around in, but on the micro level they are pretty bad at characterization and dialog and their npcs have about as much personality as a cardboard cutout.
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I've never played U7. Attempted to recently but that weird top down view was distracting. Plus I couldn't get it to run properly on my machine. For me though, the pinnacle of RPGs is Baldur's Gate 2.
It's not perfect but it's as close to perfection for me, having a nice balance of tough combat, interesting quests, decent writing, a huge world, lots of NPCs with optional quests, beautiful graphics and music. I also have a fondness for Wizardry 8, Fallout and Planescape:T.
And as much as I love Morrowind, I have to agree with you - it requires you invest a lot of your own imagination and fall in love with the world in general, to really enjoy it since gameplay wise it's nothing special and the characters are a bit dry. Oblivion improved on the gameplay but still dropped the ball with writing/characters.
I think the last RPG I really enjoyed was also Dragon Age. And even then it was just "ok". Before that? The Mask Of The Betrayer expansion which was already some years ago. None of the games I've played the last 7 years or so have excited me at all. I did miss a couple though, The Witcher and Divine Divinity 2 among them. And didn't play Gothic 3 due to the reviews.
But it's the same with JRPGs - the last games I really enjoyed were Persona 4, Rogue Galaxy and FF XII and all those games are at least 3 to 4 years old. FF XIII was an abomination and sort of reflects what's happend with western RPGs - it's pretty but very shallow - catered to what seems like kids with short attention spans.
Thank the gods for the DS!!!
CelticFrost
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Not sure how this became an ulitma 7 topic but it seems this is the game that set the bar very high for many of you.
I started with ulitma3 and really enjoyed it …4 was better in the story line and quest…though alot of shrines…6 was boring 7 okay 7 part great 8 was brutial (thanks ea) and 9 was great ending if you played after fans took the game apart and rebuilt it…forgetting the site that did that.
There but with everyone of those games they use the the latest and great that computers offered…but didn't give up on having alot and i mine alot of things to do…places to go and people to talk too…
A hugh world to explore…I guess i should have maybe posted…as i have been out of the computing world for a few years…can we not still get all the great graphics, cut sceens on two three four dvds … we all have massive hard drives hugh amounts of ram….and most of us if we don't have what a game needs are willing to buy it or better….
I want something that takes me months to play…..lets my mind feel its apart of that world…
I know there were tons of chyty games back in my day as well…I think i finished bards tale in 2-3 days and was so pissed…
Still the post could have been about how mad i was at how completely crappy DA2 was….and i know some liked it….and i am fine with that…it was a simple game with alot of running around on simple cookie cut town with a ton of side …extra side quest in which i did all but 4 of them…..
Waiting for may 17th…all could be good….or maybe nov 11 as the last thing i was reading there will be a 5 main areas alot of caves and dungons….
Though glad this topic stirred up feeligns in people…lets put it to bed..
if you want to start a U7 topic as best game ever i can say i don't feel that way at all….it would go U4 U7part2 and U3 then U7
I also never played the frist witcher...and downloaded a few weeks ago but this computer for whatever reason will no play it...My new one is do in next week so will try it then before the second one comes in...
I started with ulitma3 and really enjoyed it …4 was better in the story line and quest…though alot of shrines…6 was boring 7 okay 7 part great 8 was brutial (thanks ea) and 9 was great ending if you played after fans took the game apart and rebuilt it…forgetting the site that did that.
There but with everyone of those games they use the the latest and great that computers offered…but didn't give up on having alot and i mine alot of things to do…places to go and people to talk too…
A hugh world to explore…I guess i should have maybe posted…as i have been out of the computing world for a few years…can we not still get all the great graphics, cut sceens on two three four dvds … we all have massive hard drives hugh amounts of ram….and most of us if we don't have what a game needs are willing to buy it or better….
I want something that takes me months to play…..lets my mind feel its apart of that world…
I know there were tons of chyty games back in my day as well…I think i finished bards tale in 2-3 days and was so pissed…
Still the post could have been about how mad i was at how completely crappy DA2 was….and i know some liked it….and i am fine with that…it was a simple game with alot of running around on simple cookie cut town with a ton of side …extra side quest in which i did all but 4 of them…..
Waiting for may 17th…all could be good….or maybe nov 11 as the last thing i was reading there will be a 5 main areas alot of caves and dungons….
Though glad this topic stirred up feeligns in people…lets put it to bed..
if you want to start a U7 topic as best game ever i can say i don't feel that way at all….it would go U4 U7part2 and U3 then U7
I also never played the frist witcher...and downloaded a few weeks ago but this computer for whatever reason will no play it...My new one is do in next week so will try it then before the second one comes in...
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CelticFrost
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Dont need a ton of cut sceens for every time i kill something or even worst take a piss
Don't need some actor from tv or movie i don't care about anyways to do a voice
Dont' need the latest top 40 crappy band to do the music in the game….
Don't need the frist game toto take everyone by surprise about how great it is and then make crap for the fast food crowd there after…
Need a great story that leads to more great stories
Need towns not one two three four or more
Cities
caves
what ever happened to bridges where troll would or wouldn't be there..????
Dungons…and not ones like in DA2 where they(bio) couldn't take the time to make many but copy and paste
and if the game cost me more than 49 59 i would pay 109 129 if it is worth it and you know what you would too if you are here reading this…..so you want to make your profit….charge more…if I can spend 700 on a video card to play the game i can play 129 for the game…
Don't need some actor from tv or movie i don't care about anyways to do a voice
Dont' need the latest top 40 crappy band to do the music in the game….
Don't need the frist game toto take everyone by surprise about how great it is and then make crap for the fast food crowd there after…
Need a great story that leads to more great stories
Need towns not one two three four or more
Cities
caves
what ever happened to bridges where troll would or wouldn't be there..????
Dungons…and not ones like in DA2 where they(bio) couldn't take the time to make many but copy and paste
and if the game cost me more than 49 59 i would pay 109 129 if it is worth it and you know what you would too if you are here reading this…..so you want to make your profit….charge more…if I can spend 700 on a video card to play the game i can play 129 for the game…
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Zloth
I smell a... wumpus!?
Yeah, it's a fact, but it's a false one. Graphics have always been a big deal in RPGs. Not as big as in first person shooters but not far behind.
CelticFrost
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Zloth are you even i the convo....???
or do you just read what you think you are reading
or do you just read what you think you are reading
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CelticFrost
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I bought a 486 dx 66 with 4m of ram and 1/2 m video card for ulitma5 i do believe it might have been a different game in 90. It cost me almost 4000.00.
When i got into counter strike for a short term i spent 6000.00 back in 99. Plus countless systems and upgrades from my frist C64. My point is gamers have jobs have money and are willing to spend their money on games and systems…If companies make the games i don't care what it cost…the people companies seem to be going after don't.......which is a shame...as i am sure most here would agree if you spend your money you don't care what it cost as long itis worth the money…..BTW sorry for making anything personal in my post to Zloth…my bad
When i got into counter strike for a short term i spent 6000.00 back in 99. Plus countless systems and upgrades from my frist C64. My point is gamers have jobs have money and are willing to spend their money on games and systems…If companies make the games i don't care what it cost…the people companies seem to be going after don't.......which is a shame...as i am sure most here would agree if you spend your money you don't care what it cost as long itis worth the money…..BTW sorry for making anything personal in my post to Zloth…my bad
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Simple answer is they evolved into something you either love or you hate. New gamers to the genre are fine as there growing up with the new rpg as us older gamers become more jaded. It will happen to the new generation of gamers eventually also.
U7 Pt2, UU2 and PS-T are my 3 favourite games. I hate to think how they would be ruined today if they were being released now. UU2 was COMPLEX with people and places to find, mysteries to solve, etc, etc. Can you imagine today's players getting upset that the person you needed to find urgently, A) wasn't always in the same place, and B) didn't have an exclamation mark over their head!!!!