You said the witcher was pretty much better didn't you? (mature by the way calling me a fanboy.) The witcher was full of problems, good game but not nearly as polished or well done as dragon age. The voice acting was terrible…and the infantile sex cards…yeah that tops dragon age. You mention numerous problems…what problems are those? And by adding those add games that don't have similar problems. I stand by my feeling that if this game had been released by cd project or some other european developer these fualts would somehow not be so front and center like you seem to think.
Maybe you should start by actually reading this thread, so you know who said what. I never mentioned anything about The Witcher, although I could easily understand how some people might prefer that game.
I also never said anything about "problems". Again, just read the whole thread before commenting, and you might know what I'm talking about.
To me, Dragon Age is certainly one of the best releases in recent years, along with PBs releases + NWN2 (w/MotB). With a solid add-on and some more DLCs, it'll probably make my top 10 RPGs of all time.
Arcanum ... definitely a fave, and with music that remains on my iPod to this day.
As for KotOR, I know we've discussed it to death and I like it more than you ... but definitely like Dragon Age more - just more depth and range. Always will love KotOR as a Star Wars story and the massively overpowered Force Wave playing as a 'Force Mage' ... but DA I like more.
If this is becoming a trend - more "mature" games - then we'll definitively see more and more of them ... Kind of ... like ... clones ...
And then there's of course the question on how far the developers will go, to implement something that makes a game more "mature". Because - of course developers will want to be better than their predecessors ... To what will this lead ?
But the "flaws" they point out are not mentioned for the earlier games.
As for the power window analogy it's more like the old game had power windows and now when the new one does people say it sucks because it does.
In any case declaring something "the best!" is stupid because my guess is that if we got 10 people together they would come up with 10 different games that were "the best". For instance I did not like very much a number of games people have mentioned as what they consider the best. And further I don't even have a "best!" game. There is a long list of ones that I really liked and DAO is on that list.
By the way calling someone a fanboy should immediately invoke something like Godwin's law. Especially if it is spelled "fanboi".
Re-reading the whole thread I don't see you mentioning what you think are DAO's flaws. So what are they? And what are your favorite RPGs?
Power windows haven't changed since they were first added to cars other than to change the buttons. Some things work so well there's no need to "fix" them.
Do I need to mention them? You can just read what other people have stated in this thread. I'm not here to point out DA's flaws, but I can acknowledge what other people have said, and either agree or disagree with them.
For the most part, I can't really object to most of the complaints because they are valid observations. ie: small linear maps with very little explorability, a mostly cliche unoriginal plot, same rehashed party system that's been used since KotOR, not much variety to enemy types, limited class system, etc….
For what it's worth, I don't think people are pointing those things out just for the sake of doing it. Most of them seem to think that DA is still a great game, they just don't think it's the "best RPG evar!".
That's a lame title for an article. How can anyone pinpoint 'the' absolute best rpg game ever? How do you go about proving that? What do you compare it to? Do you, like he did, compare it to Diablo 2, Fallout 3 and Oblivion? These are not a party based rpgs. One is a action game with rpg influences. Another is a 1st person point of view experiment with rpg elements and the last one is ….well, let's just say I wouldn't compare Oblivion to Dragon Age.
Those are three totally different types of games and experience, imo. Comparing those to Dragon Age is like comparing a Ford Explorer with a Lamborghini. Sure they both might be vehicles, but you buy them for totally different reasons.
If I never read the word EVER!!!111 in the title of some article again then I will die happy. That should be restricted to forum posts only.
Small variety - There's a too small pool of talents, character classes, enemy types and even items.
Oversimplified mechanics - It'd take to fininsh the game twice tops, to know all possibilities far and wide.
Too small world - Just a bunch of locations with small cave like (limited) areas are way out of standard for RPGs for few good years already.
Lack of originality - Essentially in most areas the game just takes fine elements from other mainstream fantasy works (games, movies, books). The generic "save the world" plot doesn't help either.
Cooldown based combat - It's too MMOish. It might feel nice while controlling one character, but maintaining a whole party is a nuisance. AI is too simple to handle any bigger fight so in turn you have to scroll through all party members every 5 seconds to see if they have a skill ready to use. Binding AI to a skill was a silly move too (yeah, I played FF12 ).
Worst possible loot system - My own personal flaw, I simply hate situations when you're running the basic quest half naked, kill a bunch of armed enemies just to find out their inventories are empty or contain just items like health potions or crafting regs.
Unoriginal….this is the most commonly used complaint in any rpg or even novel and yet the novels/games that sell the best are the ones that would be considered the norm in our genre.
* 1 Adventures in Krynn
* 2 Anthologies
o 2.1 Tales I
o 2.2 Tales II
o 2.3 Dragons Anthologies
o 2.4 Tales of the Fifth Age
o 2.5 Tales/Dragons from the War of Souls/World of Krynn
o 2.6 Further Dragons Anthologies
o 2.7 Best Of Anthologies
* 3 Anvil of Time
* 4 Age of Mortals
* 5 Barbarians
* 6 Bertrem's Guide
* 7 Bridges of Time
* 8 Champions
* 9 Chaos War
* 10 Classics
* 11 Crossroads
* 12 Chronicles
o 12.1 The Chronicles Trilogy
o 12.2 The Second Generation
o 12.3 The Lost Chronicles Trilogy
o 12.4 Young Adult Chronicles
* 13 Dark Disciple
* 14 Defenders of Magic
* 15 Dhamon Saga
* 16 Dragons of a New Age
* 17 Dwarf Home
* 18 Dwarven Nations
* 19 Elven Exiles
* 20 Elven Nations
* 21 Ergoth
* 22 Heroes
o 22.1 Heroes II
* 23 Icewall
* 24 Kang's Regiment
* 25 Kingpriest
* 26 Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home
* 27 Legends
* 28 Linsha
* 29 Lost Histories
* 30 Lost Legends
* 31 Meetings Sextet
* 32 Minotaur Wars
* 33 Odyssey of Gilthanas
* 34 Ogre Titans
* 35 Preludes
o 35.1 Preludes II
* 36 Raistlin Chronicles
* 37 Rise of Solamnia
* 38 Stonetellers
* 39 Taladas
* 40 Villains
* 41 War of Souls
* 42 Warriors
* 43 Young Adult Readers Novels
o 43.1 Young Adult Chronicles
o 43.2 Elements
o 43.3 Elidor Trilogy
o 43.4 Goodlund Trilogy
o 43.5 New Adventures
o 43.6 Suncatcher Trilogy
o 43.7 Trinistyr Trilogy
* Wizard's First Rule (1994)
* Stone of Tears (1995)
* Blood of the Fold (1996)
* Temple of the Winds (1997)
* Soul of the Fire (1999)
* Faith of the Fallen (2000)
* The Pillars of Creation (2002)
* Naked Empire (2003)
* Chainfire (2005)
* Phantom (2006)
* Confessor (2007)
* The Law of Nines (2009)
R.A. Salvatore:
+ 2.1.1 The Icewind Dale Trilogy
+ 2.1.2 The Dark Elf Trilogy
+ 2.1.3 Legacy of the Drow
+ 2.1.4 Paths of Darkness
+ 2.1.5 The Cleric Quintet
+ 2.1.6 The Hunter's Blades Trilogy
+ 2.1.7 The Sellswords
+ 2.1.8 Transitions
+ 2.1.9 War of the Spider Queen
+ 2.1.10 Stone of Tymora
These are popular by any standards and yet most if not all are unoriginal. They have the usual magic, monsters, heroes, villains and saving the world (most of them).
I can't be the only one that is still interested in these types of unoriginal settings. If they change it up enough then what is the big deal. One of the most popular characters is Drizzt. He is about as unoriginal as you can get. A dark elf who turned good and yet a lot of people enjoyed his story. It boils down to whether or not it is a good story where you can feel for the characters and care about the world they live in.
Another thing is, that all of the novels/games aren't all exactly the same. They have the same type of themes, but the characters and rules change. If they were all exactly the same then it would get boring, but each novel changes some aspect. Like in Goodkind's books you have The Keeper and magic is a lot more deadly to use and control or in Dragonlance you have the gods and the part they play in the world. All unoriginal and all excellent novels.
The Darkspawn are different enough for me to make the world interesting. Plus, various other tweaks to the cliche fantasy setting like the blight, the religion, freedom for mages, the two types of elves, the politics and other countries and lastly, of course, the dragons. All of those things are different enough for me to make the story interesting. I want to find out what the blight is. I want to find out about the golden city..etc
Anyways, that's my 2 cents worth on this whole unoriginal complaint. Take it for what it's worth.
Personally I think it's a simplification directed at casual players who tend to gather everything and then end up with inventories brimming with stuff they're afraid to throw away in case it'll get useful later on.It's the same way in all Bioware games and I was unable to find a suitable mod to change that when I was playing them.
Personally I love the scavenging approach in games, with the need to decide what to take and what to leave. It's an additional challenge and I like it that way very much, still I'm aware most people loathe it. But I think that anyone will agree that the lack of full loot feels at least somewhat unreal and ruins immersion a bit...
Unfortunately it also requires a item oriented (as opposed to stats oriented) mechanics, so I find games enjoyable in this manner very rarely, as for instance even in Morrowind/Oblivion there wasn't much fun in scavanging, as most usable items didn't make much of a difference, while "valuable" item's prices were way unbalanced (in unmodded game). Honestly I like the inventory system in games like 7,62/Brigade E5 best, though even there I miss clothing (Planet Alcatraz has it somewhat covered). Stuck it up with a survival RPG like Robinson's Requiem and I'm in 7th heaven .
It probably stems from it so clearly being put forth as the spiritual sequel to BG2, the best RPG ever for many people, and just being pretty damned good, RPGotY material.
Honestly I kind of dislike comparing games from different eras anyway. 's why I don't think top-games of all time-lists work, how well can you compare Pools of Radiance to Dragon Age?
Unoriginal….this is the most commonly used complaint in any rpg or even novel and yet the novels/games that sell the best are the ones that would be considered the norm in our genre.
Maybe I'm confused here, but isn't this a circular argument? It's unoriginal exactly because it's "the norm": it's unoriginal because everyone does it, and everyone does it because it sells.
Does that make that a point worth complaining about? For some people, no. But for many others, hell yes. Hell, personally I feel fantasy has stagnated long enough now under the thumb of cookie-cutter cliches, and the popularity of these unoriginal titles does not help. Goodkind's books are hilariously bad (I think it was Temple of Winds where I just LOLd at how bad the romantic writing was getting and just tossed the series aside, talk about a series that should've ended with book 1), yet they sell like hotbuns because they're essentially soap opera molded into a predictable fantasy setting. For people who enjoy - say - Sci Fi mostly because of the Golden Era, "deeper" and more creative writing, that's horrible. For those that enjoy the books for what they are, it's great.
None of this invalidates the complaint, tho', which I guess was what you were getting at. Lack of originality is a problem for many people who either can't stand the cliches anymore or like to be surprised (the predictability of DA's scenarios, including how ridiculously predictable it is when something is a trap or you're being set up (yet you can't do much about it, usually) is probably my biggest issue with the game, combined with the blandness of its setting and atmosphere)
Maybe I'm confused here, but isn't this a circular argument? It's unoriginal exactly because it's "the norm": it's unoriginal because everyone does it, and everyone does it because it sells.
Does that make that a point worth complaining about? For some people, no. But for many others, hell yes. Hell, personally I feel fantasy has stagnated long enough now under the thumb of cookie-cutter cliches, and the popularity of these unoriginal titles does not help.
You're right. It is just a little frustrating to hear people complain about the lack of original content when something new does come along and no one buys it. Plus, I don't mind the cookie-cutter cliches as much as most, I guess. Change it enough to make it somewhat new and I'll play it. What they do with this cliche is what interests me. For example: Darksun had your usual elves, dwarves, magicians, heroes and villains but set in a totally new world. That was great, imo. Something familiar and yet fresh.
Goodkind's books are hilariously bad (I think it was Temple of Winds where I just LOLd at how bad the romantic writing was getting and just tossed the series aside, talk about a series that should've ended with book 1), yet they sell like hotbuns because they're essentially soap opera molded into a predictable fantasy setting.
We will have to disagree there. I loved his novels except for the last two. My problem had to do with his repetition. It was like he was a Elementary school teacher. We have a horrible habit of repeating ourselves or at least I do. You teach for years on end and get used to saying the same thing many times
As far as his 'soap opera' novels go, I guess that many of my coworkers and I have very different tastes. Everyone where I work/worked who has had the slightest bit of interest in the fantasy genre has enjoyed them. Hell, I even lost one of the books when I changed schools because my coworker didn't give it back to me. Admittedly, there are little problems that I had with his story line like when Kahlan goes missing for a second time. That was just a little too much. There are also a few other situations that seemed to be that the main character had too much luck. He should of mapped out some better conflicts and resolutions before writing his later novels.
For people who enjoy - say - Sci Fi mostly because of the Golden Era, "deeper" and more creative writing, that's horrible. For those that enjoy the books for what they are, it's great.
That is where I seem to differ with most people. I take on a novel or game and read or play it for what it is and not what I think it should be. Sure, I wouldn't mind playing something that is fresh and new. Albion for instance was just fantastic. That was a perfect mix of historical facts about an Earth culture set on an alien world. The turn-based combat was also a plus
None of this invalidates the complaint, tho', which I guess was what you were getting at. Lack of originality is a problem for many people who either can't stand the cliches anymore or like to be surprised (the predictability of DA's scenarios, including how ridiculously predictable it is when something is a trap or you're being set up (yet you can't do much about it, usually) is probably my biggest issue with the game, combined with the blandness of its setting and atmosphere)
I guess you're right in that it doesn't invalidate the point that the game is not original, but seriously what the heck do people expect from a game titled Dragon Age. It is just a little frustrating when really original games/novels come along and they barely sell and then the masses go around complaining about how nothing is original anymore. They are out there. Just buy the dang things.
My biggest example with that is Nethergate or maybe even Albion (I seem to recall it didn't sell too well). Here is what Jeff Vogel had to say about his highly original and absolutely fantastic game Nethergate:
And what happened when I released it? How were sales? Well, in gaming terms, I got pwned.
It got good reviews for an indie game, and a lot of people really loved it. I didn't lose my shirt. But it sold much worse than the standard fantasy game that came before it. And I don't think that it was a terrible game. It was about the same quality as the standard fantasy games I wrote before and after it, both of which sold much better.
Why? Maybe the whole historical thing made the game sound like it was (ugh) Educational (vomit). Truly the kiss of death. Maybe nobody knew who the Celts were. Or maybe the reason most people make their role-playing games straight-up hack 'em good fantasy is that this is what sells.
But I learned my lesson. Sort of. I held off on doing something cool and different for three more years until I started my Geneforge series, which is a funky sci-fi / fantasy hybrid full of genetic experimentation. And which sells OK, but still not as good as the basic fantasy stuff.
That right there is my point. I bought that game expecting something different and it delivered. I bought Dragon Age expecting something familiar with a different flavor to it and it delivered. In addition, Nethergate didn't sell as well as his other typical setting games (Avernum). People didn't buy the new and different and yet I'll constantly read about the lack of originality in gaming.
I apologize if my post was a little confusing concerning the actual plot. I wasn't talking about a predictable story line (I'm still early on in the game, so I can't speak for that part of the game). I can't stand that in novels/games as well. Throw in a few twists that the reader, or player in this case, won't be able to see coming or assumes one thing and another happens that is just as plausible. I would love to see a lot more of that. There are two mysteries within the game that I find quite interesting. The part about the Darkspawn/blight and the golden city. I'm not exactly sure how that is going to turn out, though I have my suspicions.
To sum up, I can see your point Brother None and I do agree with you mostly. I am not as bored as you with the typical Tolkien fantasy cliche, but that is just my opinion. Plus, it's just frustrating to see new settings and ideas sell so dismally and yet everywhere I go I hear people clamor for something new and original. Maybe, it's because I only visit RPG sites and they are the only ones crying out for something new. I just wish the masses would take a chance on the other games that offer a new experience.
I like it alot, but I still don't think its significantly better than Drakensang as a whole. It does have better combat overall and higher production values, but in the end the games are remarkably similar and the fun factor roughly equivalent.
I was thinking this when playing through DA all the time - these 2 games have much in common. DA has a much better party dialog system, but in the end these games are related to each other.
I am playing through DA a second time now and I have a lot of fun with it.
You're right. It is just a little frustrating to hear people complain about the lack of original content when something new does come along and no one buys it.
I buy it, as many others, these kind of games might not be so mainstream but this isn't a big factor about popularity. Look at sci-fi - how many cRPGs there were before? None, except Deus Ex. It didn't hold Mass Effect to be popular. So you are wrong, Bloodlines wasn't popular not because it isn't great, not because it was something fresh but because of lack of advertising campaign and releasing beta version.
