Is Ultima 7 worth it?

I've recently gotten an RPG craving while waiting for Risen 2 and Skyrim to roll around, so I've tried falling back on some classics to whet the appetite, starting with U7, which I've heard is a big favorite among RPG fans. Sadly it doesn't seem to be scratching the itch so far, mostly because of the frustrating dialogue menus, shallow combat, and the total lack of character development choices. What is the appeal of this game to RPGers? Does it get better later on in the game maybe? (I'm only at the capital city so far)

It sounds to me like you're into mechanics and combat a lot, and U7 is definitely not strong in that way. I'm very much a "gameplay" guy myself in that way, and I also find U7 hard to get into for the same reasons.

So, I'd probably look towards something else with more emphasis on character building and mechanics.

I can recommend a lot of games, but I'd like to know what you've played - before I start listing titles for you.

U7 is most famous because it is by many considered the best interactive living world design.

From a gameplay point of view, Ultima 7 part 1 & 2 are rather lackluster. Combat usually handles itself, and while you have a bit of input, it is usually not worth doing much more than casting the odd spell from time to time.

What makes Ultima 7 so good is the open world, populated by a lot of interesting people, the relatively non-linear gameplay, the story and the puzzle solving. But if you dislike the game, then don't force yourself into playing it.

As you seem to like Risen, have you tried the Gothic series? It is by the same people that made Risen, and there are some obvious similarities between the games.

Ultima 7 was my favorite game of all time up until BG2. Even then, for a long time it was at best a tie, though I though BG2 has edged it out simply because while I still have no problem getting into BG2, I find it harder to get myself into U7 when I've tried.

U7 is 90% about the story and the interactive world and about 10% everything else. I suck at tactics, and get overwhelmed with too many choices to customize my character during the game (here's looking at you NWN2), so its really a good game for someone like me.

I finally forced myself to play the game a few years ago during a retro-gaming binge. I simply don't understand why it is regarded so highly. I absolutely hated the experience. There are some pretty massive design flaws:

(1) Terrible interface
(2) Terrible combat system
(3) Terrible character development system
(4) Average, predictable story
(5) Inane faux-morality system
(6) Crate stacking puzzle??!! What the hell??!! Is this even a RPG??!!

Personally, I think the series peaked with Ultima 6, which I replayed a few years ago. If you want to play an Ultima game, then I would try that one. Lazarus and the Ultima 6 project (Dungeon Siege conversions) are highly regarded, as well.

gozioso said:

I finally forced myself to play the game a few years ago during a retro-gaming binge. I simply don't understand why it is regarded so highly. I absolutely hated the experience. There are some pretty massive design flaws:

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Well, I think you have to look at it as it was looked at at the time in order to appreciate it:

(1) Terrible interface - For the time it was pretty revolutionary.
(2) Terrible combat system - That's certainly true, though it was also the first real attempt at a Real-Time combat system IIRC, at least in a party based game
(3) Terrible character development system - Fair enough, but it wasn't any worse that its predecessors in that regard
(4) Average, predictable story - Really? I thought it was pretty unique. I mean its obvious that the Guardian is evil, but there still is a lot to figure out along the way
(5) Inane faux-morality system - What?!? It's the same one they've been using since Ultima IV! What's faux about it?
(6) Crate stacking puzzle??!! What the hell??!! Is this even a RPG??!! - That goes to the world interaction. Garriott prided himself on the fact that pretty much everything in the game was able to be interacted with. I've never seen game like that, before or since.

Personally, I think the series peaked with Ultima 6, which I replayed a few years ago. If you want to play an Ultima game, then I would try that one. Lazarus and the Ultima 6 project (Dungeon Siege conversions) are highly regarded, as well.

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I played U6 again as I was awaiting the release of U6 P. I found the combat system in it awful. I understand there is some rhyme or reason to who goes at what turn, but it seemed almost random. Plus add in that there were numerous bugs, tons of plot holes, and that you could very easily accidentally skip about 2/3 of the game (which I did the first time I played it) if you knew anything about how the world in Ultima operated going into the game.

I still enjoyed it, and the two Worlds of Ultima spin offs that shared its engine will always have a place in my heart, but peak? I'd have to disagree.

I don't want to get into an argument (let's agree to disagree), but I will respond to a few of your comments:

Terrible interface = opening every character's inventory in turn with "I" key (popup window hell) instead of "1-8" keys to open specific character's inventory.

Terrible interface = massive amount of clicks to get Lord British to heal, cure, or resurrect party members vs very simple process in Ultima 6

Terrible interface = Party members panicking during combat and DROPPING THEIR DAMN WEAPONS, forcing me to pixel hunt to find them again (especially in one of the forest environments). I changed their combat strategies to Berserk to prevent this issue, but I shouldn't need to do this.

Terrible interface (Edit-God, I just remembered this doozy!!!) = Party members constantly bitching about being hungry. I thought I had an appetite, but these jerks must have eaten an entire slaughterhouse, mill, and dairy worth of food over the course of the game.

Faux morality = Looting pirate chest from pirates who TRIED TO KILL ME and Shamino leaves the party in a huff, complaining about my lack of morality(They removed this irate party member crap in Serpent Isle, so it is safe to assume that they realized that it was annoying). This also ties into that idiotic crate stacking crap, i.e. I stopped touching other people's shit for fear of another ballistic party member. All in all…terrible design IMO.

Average, predictable story = Realizing who the bad guys are within the first five minutes vs Ultima 6, which had a VERY poignant and unpredictable plot development (bugs aside, of which Ultima 7 had tons more)

I am well aware of the context of the game within the history of the industry (I've been playing games since the 70's). However, for me, there wasn't a lot to like about it. The Ultima games are not even close to being my favorite RPG games (though I would be a fool to deny them their place in RPG lore and influence within the industry). In my opinion, Ultima 6 did the least amount of things wrong. All in all, it was a fun game.

I'm in the camp that really loves and treasures this game. Of course I played it at the time when it was pretty revolutionary. I think it has influenced a number of games to come after it, even recent games like The Witcher 2 with its npcs who all appear to have their own lives and things to do reminds me of U7 a bit.

I should note that I am generally not so much a combat fan. Usually I find it something I tolerate to get to the parts I like, which are the exploration, story and interactions with characters.

There are no generic npcs in Ultima 7. Everyone is an individual, has a purpose and a job and unique things to say. Very few games have done this. It's easier and quicker to just create a few key npcs and then put a bunch of other generic ones around the world for atmosphere.

I actually liked the party complaining when you did unscrupulous things. 99% of RPGs will let you take everything that isn't nailed down from right under npcs' noses and if you have companions they'll happily watch even if you are playing a good alignment character. The Avatar is literally supposed to be a paragon of virtue, so he or she is held up to a higher standard.

The main story, while there, I admit can get lost in the background sometimes. This was sort of an early sandbox style game and I think any time you have a game like that the main plot probably suffers a bit. For me, the story of Ultima 7 was about the individual stories of people and their world. On a micro level I very much enjoyed the attention to detail and the conversations. On a macro level the main quest was something I'd go back to every so often but it really wasn't the focal point for me.

I think Ultima 7 part 2 addressed this because it had a really tight and engaging, if more linear, main quest.

Overall Ultima 7 and 7 part 2 still hold the place for me as my favorite game. The amount of actual content in them, vs generic filler, is just so much greater than most other games, especially for the time. Most RPGs at that time you'd grind and grind in combat and then get brief breaks in between in towns. Ultima 7 flipped that on its head. The towns, the exploration, the quests, that is the game.

I think people have responded well to The Witcher 2 because a lot of effort was put into that game even down to the minor details. You can feel that game and its world was created with great care. Though they are very different games in many aspects, I think it has that in common with Ultima 7. It wasn't just about numbers they really wanted to create a world, which also happened to be Origin's motto at the time.

gozioso said:

(5) Inane faux-morality system

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In the Age Of Action, whre killing monsters is considered a Good Act, this MUST be disturbing, I guess.

Imagine Blizzard's Action-RPGs with such a "morality" system.

The game would be dead on the spot.

And that's my main reason why I dislike combat in RPGs so much : Combat is just ... "Killing is for fun ! For loot !"

Killing is just considered as THE MAIN integral or even innate part of RPGs today ... RPGs WITHOUT just wouldn't sell ... And that even worse that EA/Bioware tries to catch the shooter audience ... shooter games are about NOTHING BUT killing ... Take the killing from these games away, and you have nothing !

Morality ? Who cares ? As long as one can get rich ? The banksters did it as well - so why not me as well ?

gozioso said:

I don't want to get into an argument (let's agree to disagree), but I will respond to a few of your comments:

Terrible interface = opening every character's inventory in turn with "I" key (popup window hell) instead of "1-8" keys to open specific character's inventory.

Terrible interface = massive amount of clicks to get Lord British to heal, cure, or resurrect party members vs very simple process in Ultima 6

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Those are fair assessments, though they didn't bother me personally. (And I don't want to argue either, I just like to discuss these old games!)

Terrible interface = Party members panicking during combat and DROPPING THEIR DAMN WEAPONS, forcing me to pixel hunt to find them again (especially in one of the forest environments). I changed their combat strategies to Berserk to prevent this issue, but I shouldn't need to do this.

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I do remember having a weapon dropped once or twice, but I never found it to be that bad, beserk or not.

Terrible interface (Edit-God, I just remembered this doozy!!!) = Party members constantly bitching about being hungry. I thought I had an appetite, but these jerks must have eaten an entire slaughterhouse, mill, and dairy worth of food over the course of the game.

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Yeah, they are hungry hippos!

Faux morality = Looting pirate chest from pirates who TRIED TO KILL ME and Shamino leaves the party in a huff, complaining about my lack of morality(They removed this irate party member crap in Serpent Isle, so it is safe to assume that they realized that it was annoying). This also ties into that idiotic crate stacking crap, i.e. I stopped touching other people's shit for fear of another ballistic party member. All in all…terrible design IMO.[/quote[

Ok, this I would have to disagree on. If Shamino left you are this point (and I do agree that you should be able to loot that chest), then you'd been a pretty bad boy prior to that. I did my fair share of unAvatar things along the game, but my karma never got so bad that anyone left (or threatened to leave).

Average, predictable story = Realizing who the bad guys are within the first five minutes vs Ultima 6, which had a VERY poignant and unpredictable plot development (bugs aside, of which Ultima 7 had tons more)

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Agree 100% that U6's plot, as a whole, was unique and interesting.

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Alrik Fassbauer said:

Morality ? Who cares ? As long as one can get rich ? The banksters did it as well - so why not me as well ?

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Melodramatic much!!?? You clearly missed the point. I don't object to having a morality system. Ultima 4 was revolutionary in that sense (though I found the gameplay to be tedious). My problem is when the implementation majorly detracts from the gameplay.

In Ultima 4, how much time was wasted going through tedious dialogs giving 1gp to beggars in the game to max Compassion? Telling someone that you are not proud (which is pretty prideful, ironically enough)? And my favorite…fighting boring battles, since retreating makes you a coward and causes you to lose an 1/8 of virtue?

Similarly, Ultima 7 suffers as well. How am I considered unvirtuous by looting a bunch of pirates who attacked me? Here I was, minding my own business, happily riding on my magic carpet, and these jerks started tossing daggers at me. You're damn right I'm going to kill the bastards!!! And take their treasure, too!!! Also, what about that crate stacking section? Are those my crates? No. Yet the game forces me to move them (which was precisely the thing that set Shamino into a fit after killing those pirates) in order to solve a puzzle. Inconsistent much?

Don't get me wrong, without the Ultima series, we wouldn't have the marvelous Gothic games (namely 1 and 2/NOTR). However, I'm not going to ignore some pretty glaring flaws, which were deliberate design decisions and have absolutely nothing to do with the release date.

I'm sorry about the rant, but I have some very unpleasant memories of playing Ultima 7.

I never played U7 until this year, and so I had no nostalgia influencing me when I played it.

Having said that, the game is incredible. I truly envy the people who were fortunate enough to play it in the early 90s, because it's easy for me to see why it had the impact that it did. The world and characters have a level of "realness" that wasn't reached again until around 2001, imo.

Well i played every ultima since 3 when they came out..Not for me to say what people should and shouldn't like...But seriously if you didn't like U7 thought i perferred U7 part two what more do you want from a game...
In the Day Ultima games where not only ground breaking they were what pushed graphics and computers in general....The older members will know what I mean when I say I was the big kid on the block when I bought a 486 DX 66 with 4 meg of ram( ram was 100.00 a meg back then. Just for Ultima...
But hey people can like what they like....

U7 and U7p2 are the best games ever made. U7 doesn't even begin to get good till you are well out of the britian, You should at least stick with it till the first couple of dungeons.

Alrighty, I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the details all.

If Ultimas aren't your thing, try Might and Magic VI through VIII (VII is my favorite). Those games have strong exploration coupled with strong character/skill development.

Sorry for the thread necro, but it seemed silly to start a new one, when all the info is already here.

So, Dogo, how did it turn out for you?

I've gotten as far as Britain and am still a bit bored by this game. Also frustrated. There is no description on how to equip weapons and armor, just a paper doll with ambiguous slots. I have no idea if my characters is actually wearing or equipping items such as a sword or shields or belt or just carrying them in slots.

This sounds to me almost as if you were judging the then-UI with today's information/expectations.

Thrasher said:

Sorry for the thread necro, but it seemed silly to start a new one, when all the info is already here.

So, Dogo, how did it turn out for you?

I've gotten as far as Britain and am still a bit bored by this game. Also frustrated. There is no description on how to equip weapons and armor, just a paper doll with ambiguous slots. I have no idea if my characters is actually wearing or equipping items such as a sword or shields or belt or just carrying them in slots.

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If it is on your paper doll in a slot, it is equipped. The only time it is not equipped is when it is in the pack.