Risen 2 - Using Steamworks

DoctorNarrative said:

A lot of the features people seem to really like are social networking features. Achievements, chat, the community page, friends lists, etc..

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It's because people are social people.

DoctorNarrative said:

A lot of the features people seem to really like are social networking features. Achievements, chat, the community page, friends lists, etc..

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Yeah, this is very relevant to my own position as well.

I really have no idea what these achievements are good for, except if you're very submissive in terms of what other people think of your "gaming experience" - or if you suffer from OCD. The latter is, sadly, probably more true than one might think, and I don't think the concept is doing much to help people suffering from that.

All those other things have absolutely no value to me in terms of the games I play. My "community" is about personal friends or family. I have no "online" community, and I don't want it. If I did - I certainly wouldn't need Steam to decide who could be part of it.

It doesn't mean I can't appreciate what those things mean to OTHER people - but I'm surprised that it's not clear to them that we're not all interested in such things.

Exactly like what DN is saying about Facebook. I've never had a problem with social networking or interaction, and I most certainly didn't have one before Facebook.

To me, it's something you can either decide you need in your life or you don't.

I was a late adopter of mobile phones as well, and I hardly ever use them. I prefer face-to-face interaction above all - basically.

DoctorNarrative said:

A lot of the features people seem to really like are social networking features. Achievements, chat, the community page, friends lists, etc..

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I'm sure that's true, but this is at least the second time you've used the Steam / Facebook line and you mean it in a derogatory way. I'm just pointing out "likes Steam" isn't necessarily the same as "social network whore".

For me at least the social stuff has nothing to do with why I use steam. I never used them. But I know other people really value these functions, so I'm sure it's definitely a factor in steams popularity.

Dhruin said:

I'm sure that's true, but this is at least the second time you've used the Steam / Facebook line and you mean it in a derogatory way. I'm just pointing out "likes Steam" isn't necessarily the same as "social network whore".

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In what way has he been "derogatory" towards users of such a service? You're TELLING him he means it in a derogatory way, you know. Maybe HE thinks the service is crap - but it doesn't mean people who don't are "whores".

When I look at Steam and its interface - it really does seem like a "community" based thing with a lot of (to me) superfluous social networking options.

I can say it's not for me, or even that I think such options are bullshit - but that's my own subjective opinion.

I'm not sure I see the derogatory aspect - unless the people using Steam feel it would be appropriate - for whatever reason.

Many people I love and respect use Facebook. It doesn't mean I can't think it's a bunch of crap that people don't really need.

I'm sure people think my passionate interest in game design is dreary and dodgy from their point of view - but that's not really derogatory. It just means it's not for them.

DoctorNarrative said:

Uhh… the PC being an open platform and digital distribution itself make that happen. Steam is not required to have an indie scene. It's not even needed at all if you look at something like Minecraft.

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Not a question if it's needed, rather a question about being able to promote your game with limited resources.

GhanBuriGhan said:

For me at least the social stuff has nothing to do with why I use steam. I never used them. But I know other people really value these functions, so I'm sure it's definitely a factor in steams popularity.

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We began to use this earlier this week. In our group of friends there have often been two who played with eachother on XBox Live. Recently I got my hands on Magicka and my friends love it so much that we now had several gaming nights, four guys playing Magicka together. But traveling is an issue, many friends do not live nearby anymore. So now we play it on three, me and another guy from town, and another guy over internet (who live about 25 minutes from me). Thus I got my first "friend" on steam.

I have to say that this works very well. As a friend he see my game and can join me with ease. He connects into the game directly via the Steam interface, join the server I hosted and we can play.

It's just sad Trine do not allow co-op this way.

Steam has given so much more exposure to the indie scene then it ever had prior to Steam. Even if an indie game is not on Steam, like Minecraft, these games would have not done as well if it wasn't for Steam exposing millions of people to the indie scene. The indie scene only thrived on the internet only, getting exposure from word of mouth through out the internet. Yes for people who join websites like RPGwatch, we go exposure about indie RPGs, but we tend to be more internet savy and more hardcore when it comes to games. But the casual gamer who never goes to websites like this more then likely had no idea that the indie scene was even there till games started to show up on Steam, and now they know it is there.

Also, I hate to use the term, but Steam made those games accessible. It's really different to just push two buttons and voila, game is downloading, and a third to start the game. No installation files to be downloaded, no extra patches, just push-and-play. Everything streamlined, have you done it once you know how to do it.

bemushroomed said:

DRM definetely helps, i see it all the time
Perhaps the worst article I read in 2008, and three years ain't improved it a jot. His stats actually show increasing DRM increases piracy.

Illustration relevant to thread: the most pirated games for the past two years had Steamworks as their DRM.

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You must have a read a different article because the writer clearly shows the harm pirates cause and how DRM help combat them and has little effect on whether a game will be pirated in the first place.

And its been about 2 and half years since the article first appeared and only about 6 month since its been updated with new info,etc.

Dhruin said:

I'm sure that's true, but this is at least the second time you've used the Steam / Facebook line and you mean it in a derogatory way. I'm just pointing out "likes Steam" isn't necessarily the same as "social network whore".

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How did I mean it in a derogatory way?

JemyM said:

Not a question if it's needed, rather a question about being able to promote your game with limited resources.

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Yes but it's probably outside of Steam promotion that sells you something. Tons of stuff comes up on Steam all the time but the successful ones are the ones that promoted and spread the word outside of it, like Super Meat Boy. One could assume if that outside influence sold someone on a game they would get it somewhere else if Steam did not exist.

I will grant you however that their sales are very good promotion. When a game is suddenly $5 or $2 or whatever people will just buy it for the fuck of it, or look into it and see if it's worth a few bucks. That is a powerful promotional tool that a developer's homepage does not have.

Geeze this thread is a hot potato.

FWIW, not all Steam fans think everyone in the world should be using it. I find it convenient for big titles and an easy way to find out about new indie games and just have all my games in one place, however if someone doesn't want to use it for various reasons, I am completely okay with that and respect that. I think it should be a choice and not forced on people. While Steamworks being mandatory for various games can be somewhat annoying, I personally don't see it as any worse than any other DRM that has been forced into games for years. I've always cracked those and gotten rid of them so that's doable even if you have to jump through a few hoops.

I do think Steam helps the indie scene a good deal but that is due to them having the mass numbers of users and being willing to promote indie games. I don't think that sort of environment is anything unique to Steam itself, but for now they are where the bulk of users for PC digital downloads are. That could change in the future, who knows? For now it is what it is. I can personally say that I have bought quite a number of indie games that were featured on Steam that I otherwise probably would not have known about. I also have read numerous blogs of indie developers noting how they have sold many times more copies of their game since going on Steam or being featured on a sale there than they had from other venues so it's more than just my personal experience I'm basing this on.

As for the Facebook comment, I don't see Steam as being the same. It has the social aspects if you want them but they aren't shoved in your face front and center like they are on Facebook. I mean, when I log on Steam I don't get bombared with who is eating a sandwich, or had a good workout, or went to walk the dog, or take a dump or a host of other inane shit like the main feed page of Facebook dumps at you. The main page of Steam I see new releases, upcoming releases and what's currently on sale. Then from there I either launch a game or shop. The social aspect is optional and you have to look for it, it is not the main driving force of Steam by any means.

DoctorNarrative said:

How did I mean it in a derogatory way?

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My mistake, I think - I apologise. For some reason I mixed you up with another poster who takes a strong anti-Steam position and had previously accused Steam users of being Facebook/social whores, definitely in a derogatory way.

Dhruin said:

My mistake, I think - I apologise. For some reason I mixed you up with another poster who takes a strong anti-Steam position and had previously accused Steam users of being Facebook/social whores, definitely in a derogatory way.

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It's cool.

I have no issue with people enjoying social networking. My girl, the love of my life, is a facebook addict. I just personally don't have any interest. I also know there are other reasons to enjoy Steam.

I personally though just want a simple list of games on a webpage I can download, like GOG or Gamersgate. When a game forces me to use Steam or Games for Windows it annoys me a bit. Not enough to ignore the game, but a bit.

I only ever used steam for The Witcher as I wanted to play if before the second one...it is what it is...not good or bad...So it is what it is...what I have read about the game and seen vids and pics it looks worth trying so...why not

Kefka said:

You must have a read a different article because the writer clearly shows the harm pirates cause and how DRM help combat them and has little effect on whether a game will be pirated in the first place.

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(You misattributed the quote you were replying to, btw, apart from the first line it's mine).

The article fails for two reasons. (1) It starts with a conclusion (DRM stops piracy!) and works back from there and (2) his stats don't support that conclusion. He's pick and mixing, and on occasion being disingenuous almost to the point of actual dishonesty*. In absolute terms his point is effectively refuted by the observation that every single one of the most pirated titles he cites had activation DRM, Spore 2008 using SecuROM, CoD5 1009 and CoD6 2010 using Steamworks, and that (using the updated figures he provides) the advent of widespread activation DRM corresponded not with a drop but with a quadrupling of piracy.

What he needed to do was show that DRM both decreased piracy and commensurately increased sales, and he failed to do either; indeed there is counter evidence- Ubisoft's PC revenue didn't increase but decreased significantly when they introduced UPlay, despite it being uncracked for a month.

Even as an 'Appeal To Authority' it doesn't really work, as you can get other industry types with almost diametrically opposed views.

*The Starforce challenge was pure PR guff since you had to fly to Moscow and prove that you could brick your computer to their satisfaction in their office and in their timeframe and if you couldn't fulfil their conditions they'd publish your details online, none of which he mentions; and he's more than happy to give mealy mouthed excuses when they (Starforce) linked to torrents. Note also: the only way to run many Starforce games now is to use cracks since, surprise, surprise, Starforce doesn't work on 64bit even though the games themselves do, and publishers are uninterested in supporting old games. That's hardly a good advertisement for DRM.

Eisberg said:

As Steamworks being the most Pirated [..] Thanks for stating the obvious though. /rolleyes

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That's taken directly from the tweakguides article. CoD5/6 use Steamworks. They were most pirated titles of 2009/10. Indeed, 2 of the top three most pirated games in 2010 were Steamworks games, with Mafia 2 being the other.

Steamworks games are more pirated by some people because you can't just crack them to make a backup, you have to have an all new installer which often means downloading the whole damn thing.

Zygo said:

Note also: the only way to run many Starforce games now is to use cracks since, surprise, surprise, Starforce doesn't work on 64bit even though the games themselves do, and publishers are uninterested in supporting old games. That's hardly a good advertisement for DRM.

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That's actually not true. Most versions of Starforce are compatible with 64 bit OSs.

Beginning with version 3.5(2005), any Starforce title should work on x64, assuming the game itself is compatible.

Zygo said:

(You misattributed the quote you were replying to, btw, apart from the first line it's mine).

The article fails for two reasons. (1) It starts with a conclusion (DRM stops piracy!) and works back from there and (2) his stats don't support that conclusion. He's pick and mixing, and on occasion being disingenuous almost to the point of actual dishonesty*. In absolute terms his point is effectively refuted by the observation that every single one of the most pirated titles he cites had activation DRM, Spore 2008 using SecuROM, CoD5 1009 and CoD6 2010 using Steamworks, and that (using the updated figures he provides) the advent of widespread activation DRM corresponded not with a drop but with a quadrupling of piracy.

What he needed to do was show that DRM both decreased piracy and commensurately increased sales, and he failed to do either; indeed there is counter evidence- Ubisoft's PC revenue didn't increase but decreased significantly when they introduced UPlay, despite it being uncracked for a month.

Even as an 'Appeal To Authority' it doesn't really work, as you can get other industry types with almost diametrically opposed views.

*The Starforce challenge was pure PR guff since you had to fly to Moscow and prove that you could brick your computer to their satisfaction in their office and in their timeframe and if you couldn't fulfil their conditions they'd publish your details online, none of which he mentions; and he's more than happy to give mealy mouthed excuses when they (Starforce) linked to torrents. Note also: the only way to run many Starforce games now is to use cracks since, surprise, surprise, Starforce doesn't work on 64bit even though the games themselves do, and publishers are uninterested in supporting old games. That's hardly a good advertisement for DRM.


That's taken directly from the tweakguides article. CoD5/6 use Steamworks. They were most pirated titles of 2009/10. Indeed, 2 of the top three most pirated games in 2010 were Steamworks games, with Mafia 2 being the other.

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We have no way of know how a game will do with or without DRM(since you can't magiclly release it twice both ways), I find the tweak guide article very convincing that piracy hurts sale dramatically and DRM can help a publisher stop some of those pirates even if only in the short term during the critiacal period where the game is "hot".

CoD 5 and 6 two of the most popular and highest selling games are also the most pirated? Perhaps that has something to do with being some of the most popular games made and nothing to do with DRM?