SW:TOR - No Homosexuality

Gragnak said:

Well.... to be honest, the introduction of homosexual themes in Star Wars universe sounds wrong to me.
The atmosphere and the story are far from modern reality or futuristic approach to modern culture (like in Mass Effect).
Ok, we are talking about a futuristic science fiction saga, but the main theme is more related to ancient knights models, princesses to be saved and evil black monsters. There's a medieval flavor strongly inspired by knight epics and homosexuality could be really out of context.

IMO.

But it's wrong to close all homosexuality related topics on a forum. Better if they explained their game setting choices.

Sorry for my rusty English.

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I guess you had a point if - for some reason - this game becomes the only MMO in history to even remotely stick pedantically to what is considered canon. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in Star Wars to indicate that there ISN'T homosexuality, and just because the fiction so far hasn't dealt with this aspect of humanity - it really has no bearing on whether you should undermine this minority group or not, or at least it shouldn't have.

Now, obviously, Bioware aren't closing threads because they're against homosexuality - they're just being their own corporate self and sidestepping as many sensitive issues as they possibly can. It's rarely good business to take a stand and show that you're open minded. Better to avoid these issues entirely, because what if they somehow got in trouble for "supporting" free debate.

But in this case, they've misjudged the public attitude, I think, and personally I think it's pathetically weak and ignorant to treat people this way. But I have very little investment emotionally, and they're free to enforce whatever restrictions they see fit in terms of their forums.

JemyM said:

You do not want to go down that road. In "Knight Epics" for example, women are pretty much treated as children. Star Wars is our fantasy, the mythology of our time and it borrows a huge amount of themes from our world already. We do not bend our fantasy due to past intolerances.

In all things, the humans of the Star Wars universe are still humans. Only the setting is different. Like always in an alternate setting, if humans have different qualities than humans of our world, you need a special explanation to do so. Even if there's aliens and spaceships for example, humans cannot naturally levitate.

This also means that traditional human traits like near-sightedness, Asperger syndrome, homosexuality, left-handedness etc still apply. That they used to knew less when Knight tales was really popular (12th century?) is no excuse.

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Considering your other topics and what you say about Christianity and other religions, I don't think we can talk about homosexuality with open mind.

Gragnak said:

Considering your other topics and what you say about Christianity and other religions, I don't think we can talk about homosexuality with open mind.

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I wouldn't even use the term "open mind" if I just wrote what you did. Being openminded is to be ready to change ones convictions when faced with opposing evidence, not to be ready to hold a conviction regardless of the evidence, that's closeminded.

Prime Junta said:

That puts you in the "bigot jerk" bin, then -- and my ignore list.

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Seems like I'll just have to live with it...

I admit it pretty much suits me. One less adversary to defeat in upcoming battles of words. :lol:

Forced tolerance is hipocrisy. And I avoid those horrible creatures whenever I can.

Seems they've changed their minds and stopped filtering those words.

What a surprise

nessosin said:

Forced tolerance is hipocrisy. And I avoid those horrible creatures whenever I can.

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What forced tolerance are you referring to?

Do I have to point the obvious? Arent we in a thread related to forced toleration?

nessosin said:

Forced tolerance is hipocrisy. And I avoid those horrible creatures whenever I can.

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Sometimes you have to tolerate to be tolerated, and one who cannot adapt to social customs is generally not given any respect.

nessosin said:

Do I have to point the obvious? Arent we in a thread related to forced toleration?

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As far as I'm aware, we're in a thread dealing with Bioware's treatment of certain words when written on their forum.

But your reply seemed to be directed at Prima Junta, and as such I'm curious why you think it was about forced toleration.

He obviously feels your attitude is that of a bigot and he probably doesn't like that, but how that translates to forced tolerance I have no idea.

JemyM said:

Sometimes you have to tolerate to be tolerated, and one who cannot adapt to social customs is generally not given any respect.

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True, theres no denying that. Thats why you wont find me amongst those who want to hunt down people who are different than majority in whatever way they are. There are just few things I would protest (like giving ability to adopt children to homosexual couples) and the rest? I dont care, its their life; live and let live.

But simultaneously when asked about homosexualism I have no reason to say anything different from what I believe.

DArtagnan said:

As far as I'm aware, we're in a thread dealing with Bioware's treatment of certain words when written on their forum.

But your reply seemed to be directed at Prima Junta, and as such I'm curious why you think it was about forced toleration.

He obviously feels your attitude is that of a bigot and he probably doesn't like that, but how that translates to forced tolerance I have no idea.

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I'll clarify. Part about "forced tolerance" is related strictly to Bioware decisions.

And if you wonder what I mean by "ft":
From logical point of view Bioware(or someone in particular who deals with forums) made a decision of ommiting subject of homosexualism in TOR part of forums. Then after media and gay communities uproar they decided to cave in and change their first decision. From my point of view the initiative didnt come from BW but from the outside, so it was forced.

nessosin said:

I'll clarify. Part about "forced tolerance" is related strictly to Bioware decisions.

And if you wonder what I mean by "ft":
From logical point of view Bioware(or someone in particular who deals with forums) made a decision of ommiting subject of homosexualism in TOR part of forums. Then after media and gay communities uproar they decided to cave in and change their first decision. From my point of view the initiative didnt come from BW but from the outside, so it was forced.

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That makes it clear, thank you.

Personally, I don't think of it as forced tolerance.

I think of it as yet another weakness from Bioware.

First, they're weak for not allowing open discussion of this kind. Then, they're weak for "caving in" as you say.

But they're not forced, they're letting themselves be manipulated - which means they're either weak because they give up - or their original stance was so weak that they don't mind changing it, because they "didn't really mean it".

In essence, they're just weak - or they're allowing someone in their midst to make them appear this way.

Prime Junta said:

Thanks for the clarification. That puts you in the "bigot jerk" bin, then -- and my ignore list.

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PJ, the idealist.

Hearing to people say "they feel homosexuality is wrong in Star Wars"... I can't eat so much as I want to puke over that balderdash.

First, a MMO is a social place, at least an elaborate MMO like such. Romancing has ALWAYS been part of MMOs, it is per se nothing unusual.

Luke is dating his frigging SISTER! Is THAT kid-friendly?

Finally... look at Superhero comics. They adapted and took gay Superhores, and none cared a drat. It evolved into modern era. Sure, in 1950 no one could imagine a gay Superhero. But no one could imagine a Black Superhero. Maybe you actually THINK before you lock out people. It' not that we want to bring orgies to Star Wars! It is that odd and widespread idea that being gay is more dirty or more sex oriented than being straight.

It is prejudice and badly masked hate, nothing else, which is why we need an anti-discrimination law. Apparently it doesnt work with "good will".

Forced tolerance... the very WORD makes me walk up the wall! Wasnt that the SAME damn wording White people used when Blacks wanted equal rights not so long ago? Nothing changes, it seems. It is WE GAY PEOPLE who so far have been forced, forced to stay hidden, and we fight against YOU FORCING US to STAY hidden, not the other way around! If you had given us equal treatment freely, we would not force the issue! Or ask women. They had to force the issue of equal rights 100 years ago, when in most western countries they had not voting rights. Men just did not want to share rights freely. Apparently some rights are only won with struggle, but it is not he who fights for his freedom and his equality who is to blame! That is turning the entire matter upside down!


As to whose fantasy it is: yes, George Lucas is free to add or not add gay people into his stories. As customers we just ask, hey we would like to see a gay person as normal as a black Jedi Master is today. Imagine what the audience would have said to a Black Jedi Master in 1950! But gladly the world moved on and none cares. Rightfully so. But we talk about a MMO, where players want to make their own characters, and censoring words just was wrong. Bioware agreed, so why can't you? It's not that gay people are walking bombs or what.

I doubt the lack of tollerence was coming from Bio in the first place (see: Jade Empire). This is part of the problem with working with a licenced IP It does seem a little silly to me to say that there are no homosexuals in Star Wars, but that's not Bio's call. Banning the words from the forum was a little over-zealous, but it would appear that they realised as much, and reversed that decision.

Also, I'm not sure how this has anything to do with civil rights. It's not like the Government is involved, one way or the other.

What makes me puke is the Gay is the new black argument. Damn that got to be insulting to most black people.

Badesumofu said:

Also, I'm not sure how this has anything to do with civil rights. It's not like the Government is involved, one way or the other.

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Actually, a major component of the civil rights struggle was enacting anti-discrimination laws. Most countries have 'em. A hotel in Finland just got a pretty hefty fine because it refused a family suite to a lesbian couple (in a registered relationship) with two children, for example.

So even if the government isn't involved, it's legitimate to argue that it ought to be.

Oxlar said:

What makes me puke is the Gay is the new black argument. Damn that got to be insulting to most black people.

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Just like most Jews would have been hugely insulted had someone said in 1960 that blacks are the new Jews. Yet the comparison would've been equally valid.

Prime Junta said:

Just like most Jews would have been hugely insulted had someone said in 1960 that blacks are the new Jews. Yet the comparison would've been equally valid.

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Uh, NO. Any gay person can blend in and live thier lives just fine without going all flaming pro in your face homo pollitical agenda on everyone. When your black and your neighbors are burning crosses and looking for a new 'example' during the next cross burning, you can't simply blend. When the SS went hunting jews in the streets, the jews didn't have the option of not being 'jewish' in appearance. And more importantly, blacks and jews were being killed because of their race, one of which was the government doing the extermination. Your comparing the plight of gay people, not being able to advocate gay lifestyles on a private message board to the extermination of the jews or slavery. Get f'n real.

I'm all for live and let live. But I also don't want this lifestyle being advertised and flaunted to my daughter. If she grows up to be gay, then thats fine. But I prefer man and wife, mother and father, family values to be the influence for my daughter's life. The fed should not get involved. Thats what our federalist system was meant to handle. The local governments are allowed to conform to the desires of its local population, and if you don't like your local policies then move some place that is more in line with your values. Unfortunately, the fed has completely overstepped its power and has taken this away from local governments.

I like Miss California's stance....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XMvviFbkf0