Skyrim - The Technology behind TES V

I also have to say I am also glad they are continuing the development of "radiant" AI. While it was a bit of a dud in practice, it was still a good concept in the sense of moving shedules from strictly scripted to an AI based (conditional) behavior. And of course, bugs and all, it was still a marked improvement over MW's static NPCs. So I am looking forward to the second iteration.

Precisely. Would you rather see them employing the streamlining tactics of Bioware?
"Hmmm, these casual gamers...surely it will confuse them if this character is not here all the time?", "Planet exploration? Nah, let`s prune & pay for some more voiceovers of meaningless dialogue"
 
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I don't think Emergent has changed the name of their engine since they renamed it from Netimmerse to Gamebryo. I don't think they will either since they went bankrupt and are not developing the engine anymore and new names only come with new iterations.

PS. It would be illegal for Bethesda to rename an engine that they don't own. I have never heard of an engine called "Creation Engine" and since it is the same name as their construction set which also fits into the naming scheme for "Fallout 3" (along with them saying it is a new internal engine) I think it really is a new engine.
 
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Howard and Co. are masters of hype.

All TES games have been interesting - so I'll check this out regardless. I refuse to believe it's going to be worse than Oblivion in terms of mechanics/dialogue, and for all its flaws - it was an impressive game that I spent weeks messing with, even without the mods.

So, I'm interested in this more for how it advances technology and the open world genre, than the actual game/story. I'll be very pleased if those elements are strong, but I don't need them. Mods will fix that later :)
 
First TES game was like Fantasy Doom on a large dynamic open world. Thats what the series has always been and Skyrim will be too.

If youre looking for deep meaningful quests, plots or NPCs thats propably not what you get because its not somthing they are bound to invest too much time in. Thats unless they plan to change the whole direction of the series but I highly doubt that.
 
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...and for all its flaws - it was an impressive game that I spent weeks messing with, even without the mods.

Exactly. I finished the main quest in Oblivion but I had mostly lost interest at that point. 100 hours was that point so although I don't have a stellar opinion after the fact there is no way I can claim I didn't get my money's worth or that it was a poor experience throughout. It was a letdown when the flaws of the core "system" were too obvious to ignore, but it took a long time to get there.
 
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First TES game was like Fantasy Doom on a large dynamic open world. Thats what the series has always been and Skyrim will be too.

If youre looking for deep meaningful quests, plots or NPCs thats propably not what you get because its not somthing they are bound to invest too much time in. Thats unless they plan to change the whole direction of the series but I highly doubt that.

True, but some improvement on that front wouldn't hurt the games either.
 
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Seriously, you think ID Tech 5 couldn't be open world? You seriously underestimate the programmers who surround man with hair. What is his name.. douglas.. nope. John CARMACK. And John Carmack himself. I bet you a double blind folded knee bashing that your cracka ass has no idea how long these simple yet clever ways of optimization has been documented. WTF. brb shut up mom.
John Carmack has specifically said in numerous interviews about his new engine, that the folks of Bethesda have been visiting him a lot as of late with questions specific about game-engines.

Note that some of these interviews are more than a year old.
 
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Well, they`re one Corporation now, so of course they might share things - for a bit it was speculated that tech 5 will be TES V`s engine.

If it`s capable of handling Bethesda`s world` is another thing... Carmack talks a lot, but they `ve been lagging behind in their (once mastered) field recently.

We`ll see when Rage comes out...
 
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The short of it-
The difference between their "Creation Engine" and something like a licensed and modified Gamebryo or even Idtech engine is that Bethesda has been in control of the entire high-level design of the engine. I don't think anyone expected or expects this to be a wholly internal effort from the high level design of the engine to the low level design of the component processes. The LOD system is likely to be pulled from idTech's virtual texturing/megatexturing, the physics will be havok, the trees may possibly be speedtree (new version though - much better), etc. Unlike their past games though they have not had to shape their HLD process around an existing framework even if they are still borrowing or basing the component processes off of third party technologies. More components will be written or rewritten to fit the game requirements rather than the game having to conform to an existing engine framework.


The rambling part


When they are touting how well their engine handles scaling detail smoothly it sounds like they're trying to brag about "Virtual texturing" without directly saying it. That's the new variation of MegaTexture (dynamic scaling in-memory of ultra-high-texture base to any detail level as needed) that is supposed to allow for you to use ultra-high detail textures for everything and also have efficient and dynamic scaling of those textures as needed.

So it's sounding more and more like they did create an engine in house rather than modify an existing one. They've just been able to do so with the ability to adapt some of the technologies owned by Zenimax without the restrictions and cost of licensing the full engine just to get at pieces of the source code. I think there's good reason some of these technologies they tout sound like some of the idtech 5/6 technologies but aren't using the idtech engine name. They basically got to create their own engine but had access to idtech source code to use as they saw fit. It's like being able to design a car but having full access to the existing production parts of a major auto conglomeration (think ford GT - much of it is uniquely and internally designed but the transmission is by Ricardo, the breaks are by Brembo, and some of the other parts are modified existing Ford designs; compare that to something like the Pontiac Vibe which was a modified Corolla Matrix.) Don't think my analogy here is some glowing optomistic endorsement per-se. Anyone who owns or even rents a Ford GT knows their mechanic, his or her whole family, and how many years of college they've put their kids through already. This sort of freedom to adapt existing technologies can create a powerful purpose-built system but it can also result in unexpected interactions from a more organic and holistic design process.

Yeah they had accesss to the Gamebryo source (under limitation of license) but the pricing for and licensing for that is really just for "more extensive modification" of the existing engine - not so you can drop the technologies you like from it into an engine you're building from the ground up. I'm sure you could negotiate such a license with them, but their business model precludes the piecemeal utilization of their technologies without the "gamebryo" stamp on the box that serves as advertising to future clients. That's purchasing of development rights to the core technology (limited though they may be) and not licensing an engine and support package. This would be akin to a company being able to license the windows mobile source code, base their own operating system on it, and call it "Verizon OS" with no mention of MS or Windows.

It's not impossible they purchased some technologies from gamebryo - but it's less likely simply because they're not required to credit it. That's the sort of arrangement you can see being made through a parent company but it is not the sort of arrangement you see between provider and client or even partners. Though really I'm not sure what portions of Gamebryo itself they would want to own anyways - most of the tools they used beyond those meant to help adapt the engine itself were never Gamebryo products. The media design tools (Maya, 3dsmax, various audio creation tools, etc.) are industry industry standards and indepentent from licensed engines in general. The construction tools they use are an evolution of one of the first internal projects Todd Howard was involved with - back when they were down to a dev team of only 6 people trying to demo their idea for Morrowind they created their cutruction set.
 
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Radiant story has the potential to make oblivion's level scaling look like a minor flaw. More likely than not it will get cut anyway
 
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Howard and Co. are masters of hype.

On the totem pole of 'hype masters' I actually view Todd Howard as being fairly low on that totem pole. Take about any console developer and Peter Molyneux and Todd pales in comparison.

I find Todd in a unique position relative to others. I see the same characteristics in Todd Howard as I do with Richard Garriott - true enthusiasts with a concrete passion for making CRPGs.

In an unusual twist from the norm, gamers commenting about TES games still in development create most of their own hype and subsequent let down. During development, speculation seems to consistently morph into feature commitments by the TES development team. Then the game is released and the parade of bashing the game begins, with an unusual propensity to criticize the game over features never promised - that only existed by gamers speculating during development.

This isn't to say that Bethesda (and Todd Howard) engage in ZERO hyping because they do... but in my humble view, the lion's share of TES hyping rests in the voices of gamers.

Watch the videos with Todd Howard here. Todd is very articulate but careful with his words. Compare Todd Howard with Peter Molyneux and the huge difference between the two men is easily apparent. Peter speaks freely and fantastically about things he would otherwise expect to be in whatever game he is currently involved with - weather such things are practical or even feasible considering current technology and time restraints. Todd speaks much more realistically... in terms of evolution considering the TES series as a whole, hardware and software. Todd is much more restrained and to me that is demonstration of a deliberate effort to not over-hype things - though obviously one could still site past games where he did just that... I still maintain that Todd doesn't over-do it compared with the likes of Peter Molyneux.

I'm already seeing the expectations grow geometrically every time I visit the official Skyrim forums. I've already even seen posts where someone posts a 'wouldn't it be great' thread and then a few days later the GameInformer magazine cites a few facts confirming such feature or features will not be present followed by an avalanche of subsequent posts in the same thread bashing Bethesda for dropping the ball... the only problem is such feature was never even promised by Bethesda. It really is a kind of insanity on the message boards.
 
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The TES forums became something horrible after the release of Morrowind. They used to be a wonderful place to hang out but then Bethesda allowed some of the favorites from the Dalnet #morrowind channel to become moderators and they basically acted like military police. Things got real ugly and the devs stopped hanging around there due to increasing hostility. When Zenimax took over the forums got cleaned up a bit, but the intimacy of gamers and developers was gone for good. I was on Dalnet and the very early forums of Bethsoft but haven't hung around much since the changes.
 
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True, but some improvement on that front wouldn't hurt the games either.

I think they (bethesda) have tended to demonstrate that they agree with you on that if nothing else. While I think they have massive room for improvement, Morrowind was far less procedureally generated/lego-contructed than Daggerfall was and Oblivion was more hand-sculpted still. I think the general standard-fantasy-feel of the core Oblivion setting compared to Morrowind tends to mask that fact. The cities, architecture, NPCs, landscape, and dungeons were increasingly individualized from daggerfall to morrowind and from morrowind to oblivion. Unfortunately for Oblivion, the setting lacked the stark contrasts found in morrowind; though its Dwemer ruins, dunmer forts, and daedric shrines were possessed fewer structural variations within their categories they each felt very different from each other as opposed to Oblivion's Ayelied Ruins, Forts, etc.

Heck the only starkly different feeling category of location was the olivion realms - but their atmosphere and design meant they all felt the same despite having some significant variations between the 10 total obvlion realms (yeah there were only about 10.) The very things they did to make them feel like desolate hellscapes also made them all feel exactly the same.

While Skyrim will not give the easy distinction offered by the environs of Morrowind (with its assortment of almost-too-dramatically contrasting environs) it does offer more possibilities than Cyrodil did in oblivion. Forest, foothills, tundra, and rocky heights are significant portions of the map and appear (in the screenshots) to be thuroughly fleshed out and disctive environs. Compare this to the varied shades of irridescent green of the swamps, forests, and forested midlands of cyrodil - with the snowy regions being left feeling like white-spraypainted border fencing - and I think there's reason to feel optimistic about the depth and dictinctiveness of setting.

As far as depth and distinctiveness of characters and quests go - beyond an open world finally taking a cue from Ultima 7 in terms of NPC activity scripting - we'll have to wait and see. In some ways Radiant Story feels like it could be a step backwards. Done right it could make the world feel more dynamic (since these quests do use pre-scripted dialog and pre-written individual though conditionally flexible plots) or it could feel all too much like the Daggerfall quest system. If it simply allows interesting and novel quests/events to be more mobile in terms of how they may start or where they may take you then I'll be pretty happy. If they end up making the elements TOO flexible then we may find ourselves wondering why we're chasing down a theif who decided to run through giant-infested territory to hide in the bottom of a volcanic cave system crawling with sloads - all to try to excape with some farmer's 200 gold family heirloom. I do hope they have more sense than that and the examples described, if accurate and representative, sound far better.

On the totem pole of 'hype masters' I actually view Todd Howard as being fairly low on that totem pole. Take about any console developer and Peter Molyneux and Todd pales in comparison..

Yeah the kind of hype they use is more of a strategy that creates hype from the fan-base rather than one that requires wild claims by the producers. By keeping information as general and as sparse as they do until the game is realeased, they create an environment of rabid speculation. It's a similar idea behind many modern viral marketing campaigns and is also a similar overall tactic followed by many publishers/producers of long lived game series. It is much more obvious if you look at the lead up to releases of JRPG and japanese story-driven action games though than it is with many American titles. I'm not sure if companies like Bioware lack the discipline to stick to suck a sparse trickle of real information like Bethesda does or what. Blizzard is perhaps the most clear example of a master of this strategy of strategically minimal information release as a means to build up fan anticipation - though their requirement for large scale beta testing does mean it is not something they can reasonably persue through the release of a game.
 
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Some new tech is good! Can't wait for this, hoping for the best!
Todd loves what he does and tries to make improvements and in my book, delivers the goods. He makes money at delivering games, do you? No? Then shut up! lol
 
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The whole industry is built on hype... All companies are pushing for that big pay-off the first week of release. Regardless of its faults, Oblivion was a ground breaking game. One of the first "next-gen" games to really take advantage of the available tech.

I feel Bethesda is in a position to release another ground breaking game in Skyrim. Sure there is a lot of hype surrounding this game, but it's not all coming from Bethesda - a lot of people are very much looking forward to it.

I made a pact with myself never to pre-order a game again, but I think I'm going to for Skyrim!
 
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Yeah the kind of hype they use is more of a strategy that creates hype from the fan-base rather than one that requires wild claims by the producers.

I agree that this is what is taking place. I was a beta tester for Daggerfall back a million years ago and when the forums lived on Compuserve (waaaaaaay back in the days of vinyl LPs… ok I'm exagerating by about a decade) and everyone (the developers, the beta testers, and the fans) talked very openly and freely.

As CRPGnut remembers, those early days there seemed to be much more rational discussion going on.

When Morrowind hit development, all that seemed to change for the worse because every idea written on a coctail napkin and communicated to the community at large on the forums was taken as gospel (as opposed to just a free exchange of ideas as it was prior to Morrowind) by gamers - who then rabidly held the game to account for any percieved shortcomings.

While speaking in terms of generalities is most likely a deliberate strategy agreed upon in some past board room meeting, it's probably the better course of any other I can think of. In the end, when gamers speculate and create their own hype it really is their (gamers) own fault if the game doesn't live up to their own speculation. The tragedy is how long we have gone without most gamers recognizing the condition they have created for themselves.

Forums are both a blessing and curse for developers.
 
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jhwisner: Just to let you know it says in the article that Bethesda created their own platform for handling trees and won't be using Speedtree. The only confirmed third party tech is that they are using Havok for animations. (probably for physics also)
 
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Woo hoo! New engine! But it still has to work on the old XBox 360. I'm really not looking for a big upgrade because of that.
 
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jhwisner: Just to let you know it says in the article that Bethesda created their own platform for handling trees and won't be using Speedtree. The only confirmed third party tech is that they are using Havok for animations. (probably for physics also)

Yeah I tried to note that I was unsure about speed tree. My point was that they are no more free to use or not use 3rd party technologies as they see fit since, even if they were drawing heavily on technologies developed by idtech or other groups within or outside Zenimax, they are in control of the High-level-design of the engine. They can license not only the types of packages they want for it but the exact versions since they are not beholden to an outside engine licenscor to determine the base capabilities and degree of compatibility of the engine.

With Gamebryo that or any made-for-license engine technology that is not the case. Even though they allow full-lincencees to use the full source code to modify the engine they would still be faced with reverse engineering features into an existing non-ideal product rather than building the product with those features in mind. In this case that means they were able to develop their own tree generation software for their specific purposes rather than use one that still produces trees that seem more at place in an landscape architecture program than in a video game.

I took a look at speedtree's site earlier today and I'm not as ecstatic that they decided not to use it as I assumed I would be. It is pretty good now at producing effecient game-scale tree models compared to the older iterations of the software. I still have not seen things like birch trees (particularly fallen/snapped trees) in speedtree that look anywhere as good as the ones in the skyrim screenshots. Still, they're not the sad tree-like things that just seemed to be trying so hard to be convincing fake trees that you kind of felt sad for them like they were in some of the older titles. I mean the trees in Gothic IV were generated by speedtree and besides looking a little too perfectly formed and unblemished to be real trees, they were still the most enjoyable parts of the game.

I suspect the biggest advantage and CPU/GPU load savings that bethesda hopes to get out of theirs is being able to optimize it for Havok Animation physics - and therefore have all animations handled by a unified system. This would make say… the wing beats of a dragon causing nearby trees to shake, shudder, and sway appropriately and realistically a natural part of the animation and physics. With speedtree they would have to tweak and prescript much of that. The fact that they are able to generate trees that actually look organic in their imperfections and just gnarled enough to be real makes me happy they created the system the did. The fact that foliage will not be animated by and respond to the same animation physics package as the rest of the objects and creatures in the world rather than require their own additional and incompatable layer of physics calculations is icing on the cake. Maybe it's the other way around, but I guess we'll see when we start seeing actual videos of gameplay.
 
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I suspect the biggest advantage and CPU/GPU load savings that bethesda hopes to get out of theirs is being able to optimize it for Havok Animation physics - and therefore have all animations handled by a unified system.
You make a really good point here (and several other not quoted). They really have a chance to fix the animation system which has been a consistent complaint about the software since MW. I thought it was serviceable but games like Assassin's Creed show what kind of smooth animation transitions are really possible in games these days. If they can tie in havok more closely there I think it would be fine thing. They already were using Havok in Oblivion for collision detection and physics so I see no reason why they wouldn't continue to do so.
 
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