Could We Have Been Lied To? (genesis 1-3)

Didn't you hear? Jesus loves you. It's all about picking and choosing which parts to focus on, and what they mean.

IMHO a youtube video gives a very good sarcastic take on all that deist/teist/agnostic/atheist stuff:
Give an answer to a simple question.

As far as I concern, a- before a word means that something is to be understood in negative form. Theism is someone who believe in god/gods, but a-theist is "not a theist". Not someone who believe in god/gods. Agnostic thus, is an atheist, since they do not believe in god/gods.

JemyM said:

As far as I concern, a- before a word means that something is to be understood in negative form. Theism is someone who believe in god/gods, but a-theist is "not a theist". Not someone who believe in god/gods. Agnostic thus, is an atheist, since they do not believe in god/gods.

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I agree, and by the way, that is the first half of the reasoning in that video. The second half gives an even more stunning criterion.

bkrueger said:

I agree, and by the way, that is the first half of the reasoning in that video. The second half gives an even more stunning criterion.

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I would also say that "I know that there are no God" is equal to "I know that there are no <insert other supernatural being, including non-Abrahamic gods here>". The demand to be say we are agnostic to the judaic/christian/muslim God in opposition to other gods is just silly. The following video pokes fun of this special pleading.

We can use the word "know" when we really have verified what we can. It doesn't mean that our knowledge is necessary through, but if we have to take a ultrasceptic position in everything, the word "know" loose it's meaning.

JemyM said:

As far as I concern, a- before a word means that something is to be understood in negative form. Theism is someone who believe in god/gods, but a-theist is "not a theist". Not someone who believe in god/gods. Agnostic thus, is an atheist, since they do not believe in god/gods.

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Technically, agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A-gnostic means someone who has no knowledge (of the existence of a god or gods). There's no logical reason why an agnostic couldn't choose to believe in their existence nevertheless -- in fact, if you want to get all nitpicky about it, some Christian theologians argue that faith is needed precisely because there is no certain knowledge about God, which would make them agnostic theists.

In terms of practical usage you're right, of course; I don't think I've ever met a self-styled agnostic theist, on-line or off.

I wouldn't be Zen Curious, btw, if I didn't mention it in this context. Zen makes agnosticism a fairly central concept -- in a way, the whole practice is about learning to "not know" about things in various, somewhat unusual ways. Gods, life after death, and other metaphysical things are somewhat useful as objects to "not know" about.

Some old book somewhere said:

A monk came to Joshu and asked, 'Master, what happens after we die?'
Joshu replied, 'I don't know!'
'How do you mean you don't know? You're a Zen Master, aren't you?'
'A Zen Master I am, but not a dead one!' he replied.

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Theist groups often make faith into a virtue, where saying that one "knows" is a way to get recognition and awe. This form of knowing is ofcourse not the same as knowing something based on a careful examination of evidence.

There's a similar difference between "i cannot know, therefore I accept a suggestion about whats beyond my capacity to know (INSERT TRANCENDENT IDEA HERE)" and "I cannot know, therefore I rely on whatever evidence I can find during active exploration, and change my mind when new evidence contradict my previous conclusions".
The former may appear as valid as the former, but it's actually about accepting hearsay through socialisation rather than a honest recognition of our limitations. The hearsay is learned through the same flawed senses as the "evidence".

Learning is based on not knowing. If one know everything (or believe one know everything), learning stops. Due to this, believed answers might block an individual to search for answers.