Another shooting - 20 children killed

CrazyIrish said:

Ok, I'll try a different route. You notice any significant differences in the way you communicate on here as opposed to JemyM? You both responded to my last statement. Your answer mostly reinforced what I said about you, whereas JemyMs actually made me think about something I hadn't before. Hopefully the difference isn't lost on you. I imagine JemyM might have done that intentionally.

Oh, and JemyM…would you care to go into more detail? I understand the concept of priming, but I'm more of a math & mechanics sort of guy.

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I'm not sure what your point is here.

Are you saying that you prefer Jemy's way of communicating, as if I've suggested that you might prefer mine?

You've made it very clear that you don't like my way of communicating, and I understand why. I don't have a problem with that - and I consider it a very natural response to my somewhat abrasive style.

That said, I'm not sure I really believe I haven't made you think at all. I think I've provoked an emotional response - and though you may be focusing on that for the moment, I don't think you've been ignoring the content of my posts.

Maybe, once you get over the initial response - you might come to appreciate that I have some good points. Well, who knows.

In any case, I have no illusions that my method of communication is going to work in all cases with all people. I'm just responding to your comments, and I hope it's reasonably clear by now.

I don't modify my behavior based on how popular the response is from strangers - or people who have no way of knowing what I'm about. I modify my behavior based on things that make sense to me, which is how I've chosen to evolve myself.

So, back on track for the thread

redman5427 said:

I still don't think anyone needs an assault weapon. It's time to open debate on this. 5-6 year old kids trump everything.

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I agree with you on this, but I do understand the NRA's slippery slope argument.

Bottom line is the liberal solution on this is to take away the tools (which won't work) since they refuse to expect people to shoulder some personal responsibility in owning those tools.

It should come as no surprise that we're seeing more and more outcasts, and that those outcasts resort to violence more often. This fuzzy bullshit psychology that "everybody's a winner" and "we should all be content" is coming home to roost. We're lying to the kids, plain and simple. Everybody is NOT a winner. Most people are winners and losers every day. Some people are, quite simply, total washouts (most often by their own actions). These kids never get a chance to learn how to deal with failure, and in fact get stigmatized because "you've got to be a serious screwup to lose when everybody's a winner". Make it worse with the bullshit psychology that self esteem can be handed to a kid, in complete ignorance of the SELF requirement, and you've got kids that get pushed to the outside and then lack the ability to persevere without their daily dollup of participation trophies.

Nobody wants their kid to have a rough go of it, so the natural reaction is to shelter them from the bad stuff as much as possible. Enlightened society and the ivory tower certainly encourage it and glorify it as "good parenting". Remember that line about intentions and roads?

Each of you think about the events in your life that really changed you and formed you. I'll bet 3/4 or more of them are "bad". Hopefully, the end result was a positive change of some sort, but the event itself was bad. How can we expect kids to grow up "normal" when they don't get 3/4 of the experiences that result in personal growth?

Finally, you're making a little sense DTE.

But, if it was actually possible to remove the tools - it would most definitely work. Obviously so.

The question is how to make it possible and it's not just about making laws - it's about changing the culture.

As for social changes and how to have less outcasts, that's a very complex problem - but there are certain avenues that are more obvious than others. For instance, you need to lessen the extreme gap between the poor and the wealthy - and it would suit you to implement stronger social security and health care for everyone. That's the kind of thing at the root of much misery.

I could go on about potential causes for mental health issues, but I don't have the stamina and the thread is about something else.

redman5427 said:

I still don't think anyone needs an assault weapon. It's time to open debate on this. 5-6 year old kids trump everything.

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And women don't "need" to vote. Rights aren't about needs, they are about rights.

So just because you can have something, you should be able to have it for liberty's sake, even though it is destructive to society? How incredibly selfish. Wow!

DArtagnan said:

But, if it was actually possible to remove the tools - it would most definitely work. Obviously so.

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And if it rained pizza twice a week, we'd solve hunger - it would most definitely work. It's foolish to claim that genuine gun prohibition wouldn't eliminate gun violence, but that grail can't exist outside of Jemy's textbooks, so what's the point? Even putting it out there as a goal undercuts the effort because the goal is clearly unattainable. You simply can't put the genie back in the bottle.

So, to me, it makes far more sense to hit the root cause. That's the cultural issues. We've got a culture that allows people to get so isolated and frustrated that they think grabbing a gun and shooting a bunch of innocents before shooting themselves is a reasonable response with no consequences. That's some sick shit, amigo, and we should be working on that post-haste. Why get bogged down in what's essentially a side-issue?

Besides, if you "get society right with itself", you'll very likely find that gun control isn't really all that necessary anymore.

Briefly, I'm not sure the economic stratification angle really gets you much in the end. Envy is always there whether it's ten million bucks or ten cents. Perhaps you get some bang-for-the-buck by reducing the magnitude, but the root issue doesn't go away. Now, I will say that the liberal class warfare approach has demonized what is a natural condition, making envy both worse and encouraged. To my mind, we should be holding those folks up as examples, not grabbing the pitchforks. Those are your winners. (I know you despise wealth as a measure, but such is the world today, and there are certainly worse motivators out there)

The solution is to ban guns immediately, and globally. Mankind should go back to fighting with swords, or unarmed combat.

That way, skill shall determine the winner. Much less chances for a nutcase to have skills necessary to engage in such a wanton slaughter.

Unfortunately, the west will not agree to get rid of their guns, because guns allow them to fight from a distance and being cowards they prefer that, rather than fight face to face. Not to mention their lower populations could end up with them being at a massive disadvantage.

Therefore, people who want guns gone should initiate global thermonuclear war, to destroy modern civilization and take us back to a more...civilized age, where we can wield more civilized weapons.

Thrasher said:

So just because you can have something, you should be able to have it for liberty's sake, even though it is destructive to society? How incredibly selfish. Wow!

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A tool, in and of itself, is not destructive to society. What's selfish is not demanding that people be able to use the tool responsibly.

So every country should have atom bombs by that reasoning. How terribly irresponsible given that we have mentally ill and psychotics running around.

Thrasher said:

So every country should have atom bombs by that reasoning. How terribly irresponsible given that we have mentally ill and psychotics running around.

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I knew you'd go there. The answer is that there's no reasonable way to maintain individual responsibility and accountability for a tool such as that. And again, if your concern is with mentally ill and psychotics using certain tools irresponsibly (a valid concern, me thinks), why is your answer to eliminate the tool from everyone?

By that logic, since folks in the insane asylum are not allowed knives, you will be cutting your next steak with your spoon. Global responses to unusual situations rarely make much sense.

The answer is that there is no way to ensure that crazys won't be crazy. What's worse?

- the government spying on you to make sure you aren't psychotic/gimped, or
- the government taking away the tools.

I'd prefer them taking away the instruments of mass murder, myself.

That way, skill shall determine the winner. Much less chances for a nutcase to have skills necessary to engage in such a wanton slaughter.

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facepalm

dteowner said:

…What's selfish is not demanding that people be able to use the tool responsibly.

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"...An "answer" that cannot be realistically implemented isn't an answer at all—that's called a fantasy. Pointless navel gazing. Rainbows, unicorns, and deficits that go down…" Sounds familiar dte?

DArtagnan said:

I wonder why every time someone agrees with me, they feel the need to point out how rare it is?

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It's because you generally have radically different opinions on things than most people. This is true of many cases regarding politics, the human mind/psyche, the human capability and a few more.

blatantninja said:

Keeping people from having easy access to guns that shouldn't have that access is extremely difficult. These guns all belonged to the shooters mother. Assuming that she was mentally stable, the shooter would still be able to get at them fairly easy.

And banning guns won't particularly help. There's big money in guns and if we ban them, there is no doubt that the smae criminal element that dumps tons of drugs in our country and ushers illegal immigrants in will add massive gun running to their business. We can't stop the drugs or illegals, how would we keep the the guns out?

And that assumes that we can somehow round up and get rid of the existing supply of guns.

The answer is cultural change. While not the same thing obviously, in less than a generation we took smoking from a social norm to a social taboo. It was done through education, aggressive marketing, and in many cases health care support. I don't see why we can't make a similar shift in the attitudes towards mental illness and gun use.

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I agree with you on the cultural shift needed.

Guns (seem to be or ) are seen as a good thing in the US. In Europe, it's only for security personnel.

zahratustra said:

"…An "answer" that cannot be realistically implemented isn't an answer at all—that's called a fantasy. Pointless navel gazing. Rainbows, unicorns, and deficits that go down…" Sounds familiar dte?

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There's nothing fantastic about personal responsibility. We had it in spades a couple generations ago and it's still alive and well today, if far too rare. To get a gun license in many states today (perhaps most, but I don't have the time to check), you have to submit to a background check and take a training class. That seems fairly wise. Do you believe that the criminals responsible for murder have done thru that process? Me neither. There are laws already on the books that will help keep guns away from people that aren't capable of being responsible and teaching the rest how to be responsible. Enforce the laws. If you insist on a change, make possession of an unregistered firearm a capital offense. That might get the attention of some folks. (for the dense, that's obviously an exaggeration but the point stands)

DTE, personal responsibility has nothing to do with crazy people. No amount of finger wagging will change them. In the past, we have been much more severe about institutionalizing and identifying crazys. That's relevant. But thanks to Reagan cutting the budget on treating the mentally disabled, they are now running amok. Once again Republicans managed to fuck up this country in new and astounding ways.

Well, thank goodness it wasn't the liberal textbook jockeys screaming that the best thing for those people was to get them accepted into and integrated with general society... After all, they're winners just like us and we should do our best to give them heaping helpings of self esteem so that the crazies won't think they're, ya know, crazy...

There's plenty of blame to go around on that particular screwup.

But that's exactly what you are proposing. Pushing personal responsibility on the crazys is ridiculous, and cutting mental hospital funding has nothing to do with liberalism. That's rightwing crazy talk, once again...

The background check only seems to apply to past felons not mental health. we need to fix that.

But thanks to Reagan cutting the budget on treating the mentally disabled, they are now running amok.

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I can't believe it but I got to agree with Thrasher on most of what he has said today.

We can condemn pollutants in the air and food and additives to our food as being hazardous to our health. Ban smoking and drugs but not firearms especially assault weapons. Something really wrong with that.