Decrypting the Elder Scrolls @ GameInfomer
- Thread starter Dhruin
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zadokAllen
Sentinel
So my very enjoyable time with Oblivion was an illusion? Some sort of NLP Bethsoft uses to trick me into thinking i`m having a ball whilst in reality I`m toiling away and being "penalised"? Wow, man, (no)thanks for revealing that terrible truth…
And no, I`m not gonna in turn pour scorn on XP systems (ok, just one, so I killed a-hunnret rats in a cellar but i merrily spend all this Xp on Charisma?) because I don`t have a problem with them either. F3= traditional fare, great, so what.
They`re trying to build truly immersive games with TES series, task thats rather tricky (putting it mildly) So yeah, there will be balancing issues and such, if there wasn`t I`d be rather surprised. Still there`s NO ONE that comes even close to Bethesda in building humungous open worlds of such complexity so please, cut`em some slack…
Without other design aspects in place (like level of linearity, for example), your equation/implication is meaningless.
What does this have to do with the part you quoted?
The fact that you enjoyed Oblivion somewhat proves my point wrong, or what?
It´s an abstraction. You accomplished something, you grow.
In your case, killing those rats obviously helped your character to become a bit more confident.
In TES games, you could let one of those rats alive and use it as a sparing partner to become grandmaster of block.
No.
zadokAllen
Sentinel
What does this have to do with the part you quoted?
The fact that you enjoyed Oblivion somewhat proves my point wrong, or what?
Your implying that xp system in Oblivion is crap/broken/chore/whatever. If that was the case, as an integral part of the game, would I still enjoy it?
Aw, cm`on
If I could stretch in real life the way you stretched this argument I`d be a ninja Following this logic, how about killing all these rats made me allergic to rat fur so now i need to -4 my agility. Hey, it`s abstract!What`s wrong with that? It`s an open world, remember?
Cool. Enjoy playing Arcania and subsequent games from Bioware`s school of "streamlining"
PS: Ok I`m dumb = ^&%$ing quoting, how does it work? When I press 'quote' it only shows the..uh…reply, see this post…
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You´ve answered that already
haven´t you?
Your arbitrary scenario got responded with an arbitrary reason why it could be plausible from a roleplaying standpoint.Aw, cm`on
Now you´re onto something.
TES games peel away some of this abstraction and replace it with simulation.
And fail. For example because they pretty much forget to factor quality of your character´s accomplishments into the equations.
Mage casting only difficult spells will grow slower than one practicing with easy ones. Instead of practicing block with skillful fighters, you´re better off finding a lone mudcrab, etc.
Quoted for posterity and thanks for the laugh.
Weren´t these games supposed to be immersive, or something?
Personally, I couldn't care less about the skill system in the ES games, that's not why I play them. I play Bethesda titles for one reason…to explore.
I love open-ended games with large explorable areas, and not many developers do it better than Bethesda.
I love open-ended games with large explorable areas, and not many developers do it better than Bethesda.
I have no problem at all about upgrading skills after 'level up', even those that you didn't use. I abstract it easily as thinking that what I do and see is not everything the character does. Just like I don't have to go and pee, I also assume there are other things like training that's happening in the background. Sort of like in D&D when you get new spells and skills at level up, it's simply assumed that the character is practicing/learning it 'on the go', and at level up simply means that he/she is skilled enough on it that it can be used effectively in combat.
zadokAllen
Sentinel
You´ve answered that already [\QUOTE]
I did. It`s also a device called a "rhetorical question". Nitpicking on obvious semantics points to another device on your side called "clutching at straws".
Cute wordplay won`t cover the fact that I "got responded" with nonsense- do you really believe that killing a hundred rats will make you more charming? Or pissed off at a menial, humiliating task, making you bitter and doubting your confidence? Stretch on, though, it was quite funny
Agree, more or less, with the exception of "fail". Yes it`s a different system from, uh, the other system. It ain`t perfect, and maybe it never will. So is the case with the other one. But I can live with that because these are videogames, things that evolve, and I hope in Skyrim they`ll maybe fix it? Would you still bitch on if they did?
Anyway it`s not some game/immersion breaking issue, especially it can also be explained in "abstract" ways - you never seen a kung fu movie where the hero has to do some tediously-looking task for years and years to perfect himself?
Or imagine a cunning thief who got raised by monster rats in the sewers and now is the master of RatSneak and DeadlyScratch?
See above.
………………..
As for your implication that Oblivion is streamlined on the Arcania level, then well, let`s just hope you like indies and abandonware (hey, these pixels are abstract all right
And seeing how F3 turned out is rather encouraging, it could be dumbed down to, uh, oblivion (or ME2
The skill system has degenerated since Daggerfall. I like the idea in theory, but the balancing has never been right and I wouldn't mind seeing a change. To me, the Bethesda games are all about exploration. If it has exploration and it can be modded, then TES V, VI, VII, etc. are all day one buys for me.
There are things I don't like about the series, but it's still our best bet for seeing an AAA pc crpg. It seems self-defeating for a supposed crpg-lover to bash anyone attempting to make a pc crpg. I buy them all in the hopes that the genre will continue. I had hopes for Dragon Age, but it really doesn't sound like the second game will have much crpg to it. Time will tell.
I still hold out a sliver of hope that we'll see a Might and Magic game someday. Unfortunately, it's being held hostage by a horrendous company and I just hope they get bought out someday. JVC and Garriot should have their testicles boiled for what they allowed to happen to their franchises. Instead, they just got rich. Oh well
There are things I don't like about the series, but it's still our best bet for seeing an AAA pc crpg. It seems self-defeating for a supposed crpg-lover to bash anyone attempting to make a pc crpg. I buy them all in the hopes that the genre will continue. I had hopes for Dragon Age, but it really doesn't sound like the second game will have much crpg to it. Time will tell.
I still hold out a sliver of hope that we'll see a Might and Magic game someday. Unfortunately, it's being held hostage by a horrendous company and I just hope they get bought out someday. JVC and Garriot should have their testicles boiled for what they allowed to happen to their franchises. Instead, they just got rich. Oh well
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Improve skills by using is not a bad idea, but it certainly isn't implemented very well in the ES games. You inevitably become master of all skills by the end, therefore all characters end up the same no matter what. I think extremely high levels in certain stats and skills should come with penalties in others. Also, you should be able to improve by using either to certain point only, or with heavily diminishing results after reaching certain levels.
Your response to my criticism of TES levelling system(s) was that you enjoyed Oblivion. That´s as meaningless response as it can get. First, TES games are not
only about levelling systems. I, for example, enjoyed Morrowind greatly, even though I consider its levelling scheme rubbish, because the game has other qualities.
Second, whether you like Oblivion levelling system or not has no bearing on whether such system is unbalanced, encouraging grinding, illogical, etc.
You just don´t mind it, as opposed to me. People enjoy all kinds of things, ArcaniA for example.
This whole case is idiotic, but read below for further clarification.
Usual xp based systems address this elegantly. When you kill those rats with a level 1 nobody, you´re likely to get proportionally much more xp for it than you would get with a level 30 hero. For a low level character such a task could indeed be an accomplishment guaranteeing a bit of personal growth, for a high level one it would just be a boring target practice netting him proportionally miniscule xp having close to none effect on his growth.
Of course not.
So far we have barely any indication they´ll fix levelling system though.
Oblivion did barely anything (skill perks) to improve Morrowind´s scheme and contextually the system got much worse because of other design decisions (rigid level scaling, in particular).
And Fallout 3´s system wasn´t exactly an improvement over Fallout 1&2.
By no means I´m a kung fu movies expert, but I´m gonna go out on a limb and state that usually those tediously looking tasks are also at least somewhat difficult to pull off.
In TES games, repeating the easiest possible task is the fastest way to become a master at given skill.
It´s not, but compared to, say, Gothics or Morrowind, it is. A lot.
Now you´re just embarrassing yourself.
I don´t see anyone whining here, maybe with the exception of you.
Maybe they do, but I doubt that "cut´em some slack" or "I enjoyed Oblivion, your criticism is invalid" are the types of attitude which are likely to push them towards improving their games.And seeing how F3 turned out is rather encouraging, it could be dumbed down to, uh, oblivion (or ME2
zakhal
SasqWatch
How is that true? I never became i.e mage in morrowind. But even if characteres were to max all skills somhow (?) in the end I wouldnt mind it since I never play ES games through more than once. I wouldnt even want to start another character.
Dhruin
SasqWatch
Because it's not much of an RPG if you can do everything - it removes a level of decision making. What's the point in character development if you end up the same - might as well dispense with it, give access to every ability and just make it an action/adventure.
zakhal
SasqWatch
Its more like you can try everything but you cant be a master of everything. I was a warrior in daggerfall&morrowind but never ever mastered i.e enchanting or mage skills. So I dont see how everyone ends up the same. In theory perhaps but not in practise.
Of course limits could be added to the system like once you have reached certain max amount of skillpoints you start to loose old skills once you study new ones. Thus you can study and master new things but in the end you can never master everything at the sametime. Thats how it was actually done in i.e ultima online.
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As Zakhal said:in theory, not necessarily in practice. In TES games, you have to roleplay yourself, the system doesn't do it for you. If you conciously play as a mage, you will become a mage, and you will suck at other things. If you play an allrounder, maybe even try to minmax thats what you become. I agree though that the choices made at chargen should have more impact. Some mods address this as well.
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Dhruin
SasqWatch
Yeah, but Zakhal also said "even if characteres were to max all skills somhow (?) in the end I wouldnt mind", which is what prompted me to respond. He then says "I wouldnt even want to start another character"...it's not much of a "character" if everything is maxed, is it? Perhaps TES games don't all end up the same but I still think it encourages generalist characters, which is a negative in my book.
Nerevarine
Keeper of the Watch
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I'm not sure that I would agree that The Elder Scrolls encourages ultra-balanced, "master of all trades" character builds. In theory, you could certainly achieve such a character, but the sheer amount of effort and grinding to accomplish this would be staggering. Therefore, I don't think that the mere possibility of establishing a master at everything character is a bad thing; it simply allows more flexibility and customization in developing a character, which is a facet that I personally enjoy.
As an example, when I played Morrowind for the second time, I developed a character that eventually became very proficient in blades, destruction, restoration, illusion, mysticism, and just a few other skills. I enjoyed being able to specialize in whatever skills I decided to become proficient in and not being limited by the game in this manner. I know that some RPG fans prefer a more rigid class system for balance purposes (myself included, depending on the game and combat system), but I personally enjoy being able to customize my character and build skills however I see fit. This freedom is symbolic of the freedom of The Elder Scrolls game worlds and works very well in an open-world RPG in my opinion. It allows you to role-play however you as the player wishes, and I think that's a good thing for a game like Morrowind. Again, it is "possible" to abuse the system, but after putting in well over 100 hours on my second character, there was no way that I would personally put in the effort to achieve a "master of everything" build. Instead, I chose a reasonable amount of skills to specialize in, and role-played with the build that I chose without worrying about min-maxing or creating an absurd master build.
As an example, when I played Morrowind for the second time, I developed a character that eventually became very proficient in blades, destruction, restoration, illusion, mysticism, and just a few other skills. I enjoyed being able to specialize in whatever skills I decided to become proficient in and not being limited by the game in this manner. I know that some RPG fans prefer a more rigid class system for balance purposes (myself included, depending on the game and combat system), but I personally enjoy being able to customize my character and build skills however I see fit. This freedom is symbolic of the freedom of The Elder Scrolls game worlds and works very well in an open-world RPG in my opinion. It allows you to role-play however you as the player wishes, and I think that's a good thing for a game like Morrowind. Again, it is "possible" to abuse the system, but after putting in well over 100 hours on my second character, there was no way that I would personally put in the effort to achieve a "master of everything" build. Instead, I chose a reasonable amount of skills to specialize in, and role-played with the build that I chose without worrying about min-maxing or creating an absurd master build.
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zakhal
SasqWatch
Not sure how I came to write that, but I meant more like even if in theory you can max everything. I do like generalist characters. I like to try bit of everything with one character instead of creating multiple characters. It take too much time to replay these games with more than one character. I try to avoid that.
I pretty much have same thoughts with Nerevarine: