DA:O Arcane Warrior as a fighter

Yes now I understood this point I have to remove it from any tactics setup and think use it temporary. It won't be easy to identify the good use cases because it is more a spells for long term use.

The Arcane Warrior Shield Spell seems eat even%2

Yes, the uber defensive spell of the AW will consume your mana fast.

I got a fight, one of those rare where two tries wasn't enough (ambush against Zevran), have Morrigan use this defensive spell changed a lot the fight, but I didn't used the Combat Magic state. I used also the Commander armor set plus the Eamon's shield, still have to try with an Arcane Warrior the improved drake armor set (my rogue char use it).

There was certainly a mana drain from the defensive spell but ok for the benefit in this fight. I had probably some mana regeneration bonus.

That was really only for this fight because with Morrigan I found efficient using only the staff with some custom long range tactic and the commander set.

Hmm.... wait to you get to the later fights. I thought that one was a piece of cake since you could retreat, and cast AOEs to take out most of the enemies.

Later there are ambushes with archers continually stunning your mages with Scattershots - instant death if not lucky enough to disable them first.

I can't imagine trying to get through those battles with the latest patch that further improves the attacks of archers.

Thrasher said:

Later there are ambushes with archers continually stunning your mages with Scattershots - instant death if not lucky enough to disable them first.

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Yes, and it's incredibly annoying... this is where the level scaling utterly fails imo.

If I look at the fights that caused me the more trouble (for now as I haven't yet finish), I give up only two fights to make them later, and one for which I exploit a design hole to be able finish it asap:

• One was against 3 blood mages one of them was yellow, some archer and 2/3 close fighters (one of the last fights of the blood mage house sub quest).
• The other was against a pack of rogues/assassins with some archers (last Crows of Antiva quest).
• For the third I didn't gave up but was close to when I found a weird trick. It's the final fight of the Warden Keep. I noticed I could find a place far enough to have my party rest here during each summon wave. Fight state was stopped and summons could not see my party (nor was attacking the mage).

There's other fights that caused me troubles but only those 2 that I give up to make them much later. For both I started them before Orzammar and finished them after and still found them not so easy at least the Antiva quest, less for the blood mages.

The "problem" I had with the blood mage fights was that I could not setup well an ambush, both because not be able attract them and also have the mages throwing spells through walls. And front/sneak assault was just not possible at my first attempt, that's what I did when I came back later.

For the Crows final quest fight when I came back later it was still a a rather rude one but I managed it like I did with the Zevran Ambush, both are rather similar involving similar problems.

It's not fully cool to use weird tactics but the difficulty isn't low, for me, so I used such tactics relatively often. All have the effect to avoid traps during the fight and break a pack in multiple parts. In a way this break the original fight design but well I consider that for me the difficulty was too high in those fights.

Mainly it's:

• Sneak in the battle field to detect and disarm all traps before the fight.
• Move sneak character right back a mage, or more if I use multiple sneak characters. Then some long range and the ranger summon attract the attention and once mages has cast once, sneak fighters attack them. This can work very well… or not.
• Find a long range position where I see few enemy and they don't attack, then I use one or more long range character to shoot the enemy, other members aren't allowed to move until something get close. This often either break a larger pack either allow easy kill from far and reduce the pack size.
• Move in a place good for fighting, have all member wait here for an ambush and use a goat to attract enemies here, the ranger summon can be nice for that purpose but my rogue do the goat very well too.

Well I should have make my mages learn some area spells for more weird variation, and still not have try use traps myself. Also I have still not remind to use some tactics around the use of the spell Force Field.

It's clear that the overall system is deep with many possibilities, too bad there isn't more pause options, plus correction of some weird behaviors around the selected character and around tactics. In fact I never disable tactics only used the no move option sometimes, for sneaking or setting ambushes.

For the blood mages, I sneaked open doors ro reveal the area, then backed out and closed the doors. Then my mage would get up to the wall and cast neutralize to take over the wall one mage out while wynne cast Earthquake. If I was lucky I could then cast blizzard and inferno, back off and then mop up with ranged attacks for those few that made out.

Tedious and exploitive, but effective.

I used only one mage and I hadn't learned neutralize, well perhaps that's not a good idea.

Well I had Earthquake but I didn't remember if I think tried it, it's possible I didn't because friendly damages made me store it in the useless spell list. Anyway without neutralize or a similar spell that won't be the same stuff.

At first when you discover the list of spells you quote interesting choices and diversified elements but also that many "standard" spells are missing. But when you play it you realize it's a deep system with many possibilities. I'm far to have some mastery of the whole, not to mention that I could not learn all spells/talents in my first game.

If they don't made a patch allowing much more auto pause options I don't think I'll replay it. But if they did I'll certainly try replay at hard setup. When you know the fights they are much more easy in general but there are anyway a significant number that are rude even when you know them and at harder that will be another problem.

In my current game I'm trying a new party setup since some time, with 3 rogues (Ranger/Duelist + Assassin/Duelist + Bard) and an Arcane Warrior mage. The problem is I didn't manage well the classes level up and waste too many points there and there but well it's ok anyway. Leliana is my current weak point that I don't know manage well. I don't have enough tactics available because I lost many points there and there, like a stupid alchemy at 4 only because I hadn't the patience wait other characters get one more point to increase from level 3 to 4.

That setup is rather interesting and make the Arcane Warrior choice more significant. One thing I quote is that the game seems offer less armors choices for non STR characters. There's more special armors in heavy/massive categories and STR requirements are rather high for higher level medium armor.

Dasale said:

In my current game I'm trying a new party setup since some time, with 3 rogues (Ranger/Duelist + Assassin/Duelist + Bard) and an Arcane Warrior mage.

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Hey that's exactly what I'm planning to do at the moment. 3 Rogues + Arcane Warrior. Specializations are slightly different:

Morrigan: Arcane Warrior (not sure which second spec yet; lots of support buffs and auras plus glyphs level 3 for the stun combo).
Leliana: Bard/Ranger, ranged support plus crowd control. Ranger only for the wolf's howl.
Zevran: Assassin/Duelist, not sure yet how I'll develop him, either as a support tank or as another backstabber
Ley (my city elf rogue): Assassin/Bard (taught by Lel & Zev ), backstabber

All of the rogues will eventually have level 4 stealth so that Morrigan will have an easier time picking up enemies. I did cheat a little bit in that I changed Lel's and Morrigan's talents around with the toolset, talent points are scarce enough for non-NPCs as it is, so I needed to have them not make bad choices retroactively.

I didn't plan anything but that's a good party anyway, but with more levels rogues become better. That's perhaps not the strongest party but it has some plus.

I don't know if two rangers allow two summons at same time but if it does that's certainly an interesting alternative for using a blood mage. Well Morrigan nor Wynne can't be both blood mage and Arcane Warrior.

For the summons I consider a bug that you don't have persistent tactics setup nor see in command bar all the skills available. Myself I didn't found the wolf that great and used the bear until later I used the spider. Both are too big and this can involve problems but the bear is a temporary tank that can have many use and the spider is fast and efficient. It's good to have all 3 summons so you can switch to another if during a fight one die.

About very rude fights for me I just got my 4th making me giving up, Gaxkang. The trick seems to not allow him cast in one way or another otherwise his drain spell is too powerful. Alas it's really a point I overlook and Morrigan has no tools against that. I have Wynne with some level up to do so I'll probably able to give her some spells for this battle.

Well I'm also close to a level up so could wait it to give cone of cold to Morrigan and perhaps use Wynne too with this spell and perhaps make the fight very easy. But Curse of Mortality seems a good option too, have them both would be nice.

Definitely cone of cold will help you there. Also, crushing prison and blood wound helps. Stone fist isn't bad.

Have your rogues hit with dirty fighting, and momentum.

Also, it helps to caste haste and telekenic weapons.

Good luck, that's a fun one!

I don't have much of this. Let recapitulate, the base to win this fight:

• Increase dps up to be more efficient than Gaxkang life draining.
• Stop Gaxkang using magic though disabling casting, mainly to stop him use life draining.
• Drain Gaxkang Mana faster than his mana regeneration to make him stop cast.
• Interrupt Gaxkang casting at a rate high enough to make a balance positive between dps and Gaxkang life draining.
• Alternate or combine any of those.

For achieving this, the points I quoted from various sources including your suggestions:

• Dirty Fighting: Is this really work on Gaxkang? I don't remember see him fall down. If it does the effect duration could be too short to change the balance, it's just a little plus, well it's also possibly one more casting interruption source. I had it in tactics.
• Momentum: Only Zevran have it, not enough to change the damage/restore health balance, but definitely one to activate.
• Neutralize: None of my mages is even close to learn it.
• Cone of Cold: Only Wynne can learn it but this will require use all points left and would be a bit weird to spend them here and reduce spells choice from the whole roster (Morrigan has already the 1st 2 spells of this row but no points left to learn it).
• Stone fist: Wynne have it but like Dirty Fighting the effect duration is too short but it can be one more casting interruption source.
• Crushing Prison: Only Wynne can learn it by spending all points left. It's an option I was looking at, the alternative was make Wynne learn the Glyph rows.
• Telekenic Weapons: Only Wynne can learn and could be learned with Crushing Prison. At least I could try if it increase enough the dps.
• Haste: Isn't Haste neutralize Momentum? I can spend 2/3 points of Wynne to learn it. I suspect it won't be enough for counterbalancing life drain but with other stuff improving my party dps, perhaps.
• Mana Clash: I read the chance it works in this fight is very low. It's weird that the spell description give no idea of this… one more dirty stuff in DAO as too many in game description stuff.
• Mana Drain: Morrigan knows it, but the game gives no hint about the mana level of enemies, so it's not clear how effective it will be against Gaxkang.
• Mana Cleanse: Twice the effect of Mana Drain but only Wynne can learn it. Same problem than Mana Drain, low clue about the effect.
• The dagger with the trait "interrupt casting" my rogue use it but I didn't notice any effect in this fight. Well I should gives it to Zevran with momentum activated, perhaps that will make a difference.
• Pestemage potion: I have only one, perhaps I could find more in shops or have the recipe and the stuff to make some. Never used it so no idea if the two rogues can use it with efficiency.
• Andraste arrows: I have 30 Andraste arrows, well if it's as efficient than the dagger with the trait "interrupt casting" that will be a waste to use them in this fight. Still an option to look at.
• Agility Balm: I have only one, perhaps I could find more in shops or have the recipe and the stuff to make some.
• Poison Oils: I have some that both rogues could use and can cumulate them to cumulate effects and increase dps plus some stun chances.

Well, not obvious, I need experiment. With one level up I'll have more options like Morrigan learning Curse of Mortality and Wynne learn the full row of Glyph, or the last 3 spells of the Telekinesis Row plus Mana Drain or something else, or learn Cone of Cold plus Mana Drain or something else.

But I'm already level 20, and I don't feel good to spend my last learning options into this optional fight, I could regret later.

The thing is that all of those talents/spells I listed are useful against any elite or boss. THey are good to have, in general.

One more that is key is Coup de Grace. If you can immobilize/stun an enemy, your rogue does massive damage since all of his hits become backstabs. So the key strategy is to immobilize/stun somehow and then with haste/momentum plus Coup de Grace do a masssive number of backstabs.

Make sure your rogue is fighting with dual weapons - a dagger in each hand. This is the highest dps setup I believe (with Lethality and high cunning, of course).

In my experince, the most reliable way to immobilize is cone of cold. So I would get that spell. Glyph of Paralyis has worked just as often. In general, the glyph line is great.

BTW, have you bought all the tomes? I am almost finished and have reached level 23, so you may get a few more points from levelling.

Don't know about haste canceling momentum. I use both.

In summary, I'd say spend the points on CoC. It's probably the most useful spell to have. It can immobilize multiple foes vs. just one for glyph of paralysis.

Now I am speaking without having applied the latest CoC and CP nerfing patch. You can save before trying it out, and if it doesn't help enough go back and try something else.

When looking for information around Gaxkang, I noticed a series of talents and spells I oversee and often quoted as more efficient, including those you quoted. Well I play at normal mode so until this fight the dps wasn't such a major thing and static placement spell like neutralize would not help much I think, enemy mages tend to run a lot.

For Coup de Grace, my Rogue and Zevran have it, both are dual weapon, only my rogue has high cunning. Daggers in both hands is better? I was alternating and with Zevran since few time I use a powerful sword with help of some items increasing STR. Well I could give them both 2 daggers. It's faster or what?

For momentum the description mentions it uses quickly the Endurance so that discourage me try it. And if Zevran has it it's probably only because he has it when I recruited him.

For Cone of Cold, I didn't believed it was freezing bosses, I noticed Winter's Grasp wasn't frozing higher level monsters not bosses. I didn't suspected (nor read well enough the description) it was different for CoC and CoC involves the friendly damages problem so I skip it. But yes that's an option I'll prioritize.

Yes I already bought all tomes, except if some new shop popup with some more. For reaching level 23, not sure, I read often it's more level 22 and I skip few fights there and there. I have seen the game gives a tool to buy more xp but well I'll use it only for the last hope and this non mandatory fight won't be the reason to do so.

About the stacking of Mometum and Haste in fact it seems more complicate, the rule seems that above 60% the global haste reset so if you stack too much haste you can get lower hit rate. But Momentum + One Haste only should work fine.

What's this point about latest nerfing patch? I'm using 1.02 since the start of the game.

The latest patch (1.02) nerfs CoC and CP. In particular, the coodown was increased for CoC.

per the release notes:

"* The spells Force Field, Crushing Prison, Cone of Cold, and Blizzard now have shorter durations and/or longer cooldowns. This ensures that combatants can no longer stun-lock each other by repeatedly casting the same spell."

Neutralize can be targeted on a mage and when cast, it will cast on top of him. The nice thing about neutralize, is that it removes all the mana. Many times the mage stays put and just uses his staff (bad AI). Then you can take him down with melee or ranged attacks. When he moves of the glyph his mana only very slowly restores, and you have planty of time to take him out usually before he can cast spells again.

BTW, I have no trouble with endurance when Zevran activates momentum. He can also do his other specail attacks. And I only use one haste at a time, so maybe that's why I never saw a problem with momentum?

There's an analysis that good daggers do more dps with a rogue than sword and a dagger, because daggers are faster. Because you attack faster, you get more backstabs, which are better than extra damage from swords. Make sure to get Lethality that replaces cunning for damage on your high cunning rogue. That way you can ignore strength (except for armor requirements).

CoC and Glyph of Paralysis works most of the time against most bosses and elites, except for the few of the very toughest like high dragons. CoC worked reliably against Gaxkang.

Ok Glyph spell can be cast on enemy not only on ground, it's weird but I never tried them. For the first play and without using a mage for your character you can't really try everything apart by testing and replay some parts with different spells. I preferred focus on mood than optimization and testing everything for first play. I spoiled a bit BG2 because of that, still remember it, BG2 tedious beginning didn't help, and since this I don't do it anymore for first replays. I force to stick at max 2 characters tries for first play.

About dps computing I suppose you reference this post:
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/223777/1

Well, the final table is just that, as explained in those posts there are many points not used, and they are important like:

• Chance to hit,
• defense level,
• armor level,
• any other bonus like casting interruption traits or Lucky (from Axemeter).

Dps can be important but for a less specialized role it's far to be the only point.

Also the final table is only based on hyper optimized characters from traits and equipments. Except that you need have plan this from the start and have the equipment. The strongest dagger cost 148 gold, it's quite possible to buy it but that's an involving choice at such price. The final table use this item and I don't have it. Also the final table is made without the dagger Dead Thaig Shanker that has a useful interrupting casting traits. Even with a dps focus I'm surprised of the second choice dagger with only 2 runes slot when the crow dagger made with dragon bone give 3 runes and +15% to critical and backstabbing.

After to have read rather in detail those posts, I would tend to temper a lot that the best choice is just the build giving the best dps in this analysis.

That said I still agree that 2 daggers is a rather interesting choice. With my current equipment, it's not so obvious to equip both rogues with 2 daggers.

I don't have patience to try out every spell myself, and do massive restarts based on false starts. So I read and write with people like yourself before even starting the game, and have a good idea on my build b4 playing. Learning that the glyph spell can be targeted on an enemy was pretty obvious, when the targeting reticule glows when over an enemy (just like any other targeted spell). All the spells work like that, even those with AoEs. Believe me, I learned the hard way when my whole party got targeted by my mage's blizzard, because I had inadvertently targeted a pulling Leilana.

Hmmm… that post has metamorphosed into a monster with optimal gear as well. And I thought I was anal retentive. Originally, the post had nothing about gear optimization, and still the dagger/dagger cunning rogue was the best for dps.

Excellant starting daggers can be gotten with The Edge - DLC (appears magically in your inventory at the start) and the Cheese Knife from the Shale DLC area (luv that name .

I don't have the edge (DLC side effect crap) but yes I started use the cheese knife rather soon, in fact the dragon bones Crow dagger not so late too. I don't use anymore the cheese knife but still the dragon bones Crow dagger.

Two axes are intriguing, one with the requirement of being a rogue and another with the unique traits of Lucky. Alas I haven't found what's the effect of this trait.

I think lucky means more critical hits, but since you should be focussed on backstabbing as much as possible, more critical hits doesn't really help your rogue much.

I'd like to see the numbers that criticals and backstabs give you. For me I focussed on regular damage, and was very successful on normal using that approach. If I could choose b/t getting +2 or more damage, I would take that over more backstab/crit damage or chance. Don't know if that is optimal, but it worked for me.

For Lucky I read many hypothesis but nothing sure, it does nothing, it gives more gold or better drops, it gives an additional chance to hit if a hit isn't successful and now it gives more critical.

I also don't know what's the level of critical damages but I'm sure some people made at least an evaluation of it. Favor damages make sense, but apart if damages from runes doesn't work well the 3 slots of the dragon bones Crow dagger plus the 15% to critical makes it a nice dagger. The only problem is the game doesn't have infinite resources of runes. Anyway I have now 3 Dragon Bones Daggers, just for trying sometimes to use two daggers for both rogues.

I finally beat Gaxkang and I think that the main difference came from high chance of paralyze I gave through runes to the two rogues. This paralyzed him a lot and I gave the dagger that interrupt casting to Zevran but the effect of this is less visible than paralyze. In fact during shops exploration for items for this fight or in general, I made few encounter and finish few quests so level up before this fight.

I also made various changes, not sure if any have been important:

• Gave both rogues two daggers, and through runes, in main hand max paralyze and in second hand max damages. I used 3 Dragon Bones Crow daggers and the Dead Thaig Shanker gave to Zevran main hand.
• Activated momentum for Zevran through the tactics. Yes that's good and I'll let it on always now.
• Activated rapid shot through tactics for Leliana, plus had some more options in tactics making her use more special attacks.
• At beginning of fight I took care Leliana doesn't attack asap to not attract the attention.
• Focused on cold protection for all through equipment.
• I gave last summon level to my ranger and the improved spider does high damages.
• I also activated in tactics the use of lower healing potion at health < 50% for all and in 1st tactics slot. At end of fight most lesser healing potions was used ie 18(!) and I used 3 normal potions manually.
• Morrigan learned the spell fatality and I used it relatively soon in the fight and a second time later but then it fails. I have to see how includes it in tactics, perhaps only manual use.
• I controlled more Morrigan and beside managing some regen health I also took care use more often the mana drain spell, it is activated in tactics but when I control her tactics aren't working. I only used one minor mana potion during the fight but also didn't used much attack spells, only some Winter's Grasp and the 2 Fatality.

A significant change with my 3 previous attempts was that Gaxkang used much less a sort of area attack, not sure which it is, it seems cold and seems involve life draining too, not sure. And not much the spirit area stun attack, few but less than during previous attempts.