Avadon Win Demo up on the FTP

Cool, downloading now. Won't be able to play it until after Witcher 2 at the earliest, but I can give it a quick try.
 
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I have to say it's quite bland. I've done the whole "dungeon overrun with rats" thing like a hundred times, not sure why I would want to do it again with lesser graphics and blander writing.

That said I am sure it gets much better.

Still, I honestly don't know why indie RPG folks keep making typical fantasy games. It's like all those somewhat indie groups making modern warfare shooters, you're competing with a ton of bigger budget games. Why not make something more unique? How many cyberpunk or steampunk RPGs are there? How many actual original ideas are there? I'm disappointed this is so typical fantasy wank, at least at first.
 
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I once read a blog by Jeff Vogel that it wasn't that easy for indie developers to take chances, at least if your games is your only/main source of income. He doesn't sell that many games, and spending a year developing something that turns out not selling would be a disaster. It does make sense to me.

And actually, I think the Avernum setting was a bit different. Haven't played Avadon yet. And FWIW, I just went through Gamersgate's Indie section, which as far as I can see provides a lot of different game settings.
 
This brings me back to what I originally feared, reading (non-fan) responses to Avadon.

If this is about profit, then I have to ask why we would want to support indie developers. It'd just be inferior mainstream titles, and as such I'd rather have the production values on top of the drone-like gameplay.

But but, I'll check out the demo and see for myself.
 
If Vogel was in business mainly for the profit, I'm sure that there are a lot of other jobs that would bring him more money and a more secure income.

He wants to make games. But he also has a family to support. So he has to make games that sell enough to achieve that. He could of course get a normal, daytime job, and develop games in his spare time, in which case there would be much longer between releases, and he probably couldn't spend as much time developing them.

I think his games are good, very good. IMHO he concentrates on the more important things in RPG's, and not on bells and whistles. Which is what I prefer, and I wish more developers did that. But he has to make a living.
 
pibbur said:
If Vogel was in business mainly for the profit, I'm sure that there are a lot of other jobs that would bring him more money and a more secure income.

He wants to make games. But he also has a family to support. So he has to make games that sell enough to achieve that. He could of course get a normal, daytime job, and develop games in his spare time, in which case there would be much longer between releases, and he probably couldn't spend as much time developing them.

I think his games are good, very good. IMHO he concentrates on the more important things in RPG's, and not on bells and whistles. Which is what I prefer, and I wish more developers did that. But he has to make a living.
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Well, that argument is what I'm hearing all the time from AAA developers as well.

They want to make games, but they have to make them sell.

I suppose it's impossible to make an indie game sell if it's not mainstream in terms of gameplay? Maybe I'm thinking in the wrong terms about indie games - but let's just say that if I wanted mainstream games - I'd stick to AAA titles for the production values.

About Avadon, I won't know until I actually play it. If it turns out to be intricate with deep mechanics, as in non-mainstream - then I'll be happy and will naturally support it.
 
So, what do you think Vogel should do. How should he earn his money?
 
pibbur said:
So, what do you think Vogel should do. How should he earn his money?
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I think he should do exactly what he thinks is right.

If he can't support his family without making mainstream indie games (assuming Avadon IS mainstream) - then obviously he should do just that, if he wants. It's not like there's some kind of obligation to make enthusiast games.

I reserve the right not to support such a game, though, because I have no interest in it.

I'll post my impressions from the demo, after I've tried it. Maybe the fans are right about it, and that would definitely be great. People here have been adamant about it being pretty good, so I have every intention of giving it a fair try.
 
First dungeon is a bit linear, but there are some choices (though too early to tell if they have any meaning). Dungeon has some areas you can't access without a decent lockpick skill, and you can choose to be merciful or severe towards a particular npc etc.
Too early for any real opinion, but it has a pretty decent character progression so far.
 
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I tried this for a short time, and I was immediately put off by how bland everything seemed.

However, it wasn't a fair try - as I'm tired from work and will eventually get back to a real test.
 
DArtagnan said:
..If it turns out to be intricate with deep mechanics, as in non-mainstream...
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Mmm? What RPG list? I don't mean oldies but just what you have in mind that enter in that category. :)
 
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I'm sad, I'm feeling coming the almost total ignorance and incomprehension about that game. In those forums I'd say it's weird. And those same players will whine and ask where have disapeared the RPG players.

I don't mean it's impossible to not enjoy, just that the world gaming mood is too much about whining and requesting, this isn't compatible with the necessary imperfection of low budget games. Ha well.
 
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pibbur said:
I once read a blog by Jeff Vogel that it wasn't that easy for indie developers to take chances, at least if your games is your only/main source of income. He doesn't sell that many games, and spending a year developing something that turns out not selling would be a disaster. It does make sense to me.
Click to expand...

Yes but by not taking chances, by making a typical fantasy RPG, he puts himself in direct competition with hundreds of other games with better budgets. I'm well past getting excited about needing a lockpick skill to open a door in a medieval prison infested with rats, sorry. If I want to play that game there are hundreds of alternatives with better production.

I don't need good graphics mind you, I love indie games and have bought many, but why choose indie over big budget games when the indie game does nothing different? If I want standard fantasy roleplaying, even turn-based, there are many better looking and playing alternatives.

Anyway, this is based off less than an hour of playing it, and like I said it might get better. Maybe the story gets more interesting or the world more unique. I've never played a Spiderweb game before so once The Witcher 2 and other games are out of the way I might buy this one just to throw some money his way and really try it. For now though color me disappointed it's so bland and typical.
 
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He took a chance with Nethergate and it didn't do as well as he imagined. I still don't understand that. You essentially got two games in one. You could play the Celts or Romans, but I must have been alone in my adoration of that game because I distinctly remember him talking about how people weren't as interested in that game as much as they were in his other high fantasy games. Too bad really. I would have loved to have played Nethergate 1 - 6.

I believe he also took a chance with Geneforge and it worked out great. I didn't read this anywhere it is just my opinion. It still has swords and sorcery, but the story is told in wonderfully new setting and gameplay is familiar yet new. Forget about recruiting companions for your quests, just make them yourself.

Hopefully he'll stick to that formula of making one generic high fantasy RPG series and then try something new with another title. I wouldn't even mind another creature creator game (with Necromancers this time around :)). I haven't gotten tired of that setting and don't believe I ever will.
 
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Dasale said:
I'm sad, I'm feeling coming the almost total ignorance and incomprehension about that game. In those forums I'd say it's weird. And those same players will whine and ask where have disapeared the RPG players.

I don't mean it's impossible to not enjoy, just that the world gaming mood is too much about whining and requesting, this isn't compatible with the necessary imperfection of low budget games. Ha well.
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Agreed.
And I am guilty a swell.
But when i complain about Bioware RPGs its one thing.
Indy RPGs , well thats whole different ballgame.

When Bioware had all the money , time and skill to make the things in their game just as they wanted them to be - but didnt , because they want to make much more money. Indy developers have no such luxury. They can bring game to a level close to what they want. And have to cut corners.

So instead of complaining, you just have to except the games as they are.

Play them if you like or dont if you not.
 
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Twotricks said:
Agreed.
And I am guilty a swell...
Click to expand...

I'm not guilty at all, I'm sad my contemporary players seems living in another planet full of non satisfaction and naive believing of "perfection". :biggrin: I hope I take out some teeth.

I'm still playing the game and for me it started slowly but grow on me quite well in few hours. And now I'm playing a big great RPG, and too bad for those unable to enjoy.
 
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