D
I could name a few others on this site who are just as bad, but not as eloquent in there own defense.
O
Omega
Guest
Long thread… Long posting, long reply. 
I hope you'll make it through the end, dear reader, I'll understand if you give up.
————————
"Honesty and rational thinking is the way to go."
So, you know what honesty is, DArtagnan? You know what rational thinking is?
Your remarks remind me of times when I was younger, 18-25 years old, before Fate dumped some misfortune on me and I contemplated on life and on my life in particular.
But who knows, there may come a time where I will change my views again - life is change, and life is circular (as opposed to linear).
"Honesty and rational thinking is the way to go."
Let's bring in your personal space. Let's say you're a devil (or a god or a puppy or whatever, pick the one you like - those labels are irrelevant and do not represent my thoughts or feelings about you).
Let's say I say:
'You're a devil!'
But are you a devil all the time in every situation in the past and the present?
Unlikely.
'You're a devil sometimes!'
That's better. More truthful.
But hey, what's a devil actually? Opinions, definitions vary. Some might agree. Some may disagree, because they have never seen you behaving like a devil.
So it would be more correct to say:
'I think you're behaving like a devil sometimes.'
That would be most truthful, that would be honest.
Hm. Is it?
'I feel you're behaving like a devil sometimes.'
Wouldn't that be more correct? Or…?
'I think I feel you're behaving like a devil sometimes… '
Yup! Doing justice.
Funny: the more truthful, the more honest, the more modest. The more pleasant?
You acknowledged that things aren't simple:
"However, I really do feel (read: THINK)"
"However, the two concepts blur together - because sometimes you think because of something you feel - and sometimes you feel because of something you think."
Yes, things are not black and white. Do not automatically assume others know what you mean, if you value understanding - if you ask me. Also, I don't think it's wise to assume without hesitation that words picked are honest or truthful just because they're the ones that were in your head, be it once or a hundred times.
In my experience: replace any hidden exclamation point for a questionmark and you'll end up being more honest than when opening your mouth and just burping out thoughts or feelings.
IMHO taking time to place question marks, taking time to pick the right words, may not only improve honesty but kindness as well.
Honesty, being honest, according to you:
"It means coming across as an unpleasant person because you care enough about people to be honest."
"If you'd rather be pleasant to people than honest, that's your choice."
"No, I don't believe you can be both very often."
I do not regard it as an either or situation. I do not have to behave as an unpleasant person, or come across as an unpleasant person, just because I have unpleasant news.
I often think of it as a challenge: how to formulate it in such a way that my sour news is taken in and easily swallowed. N.B: never do I use any lies to sweeten my sour.
I have experienced people may be grateful, no matter how bad the news, when you show you have taken note of their thoughts, feelings and point of view.
When you say to me…
"You don't want to hear the truth unless it's delivered in a pleasant way. But truth is often NOT pleasant - so it can't be delivered like that."
… I'd like to say to you:
First. THE truth? I'm too well aware my truth is just one perception, as is yours, or anybody elses.
Often one perception does not exclude another; both can be true. So truth can be pleasant as well as unpleasant, depending on the perception. Perceptions can be changed. Constructive criticism is what I am talking of here, helping and supporting people. Now - not somewhere in the foreseeable future.
Second. To me deliverance in a pleasant way means one adjusts to one's conversational partner. I change my formulation, depending on the audience. I am not a stupid machine that has only one way of saying it, only one song to sing my message. No.
I can't imagine YOU'RE that restricted that your truth can be told in just one way. Isn't it the essence that counts rather than the form?
On to your motivation:
"Make it harder on myself and do what I feel is right."
"Of course I have consideration for the receiver. I have more consideration for the receiver than you do."
"There's the short-term reaction and there's the long-term reaction."
"The VAST majority of the human population are focused on short-term thinking. I'm not."
Me, I try to get the same reaction in the short term that I hope I'll get in the long term.
I too care about honesty. But I am not interested in hurting people just for the sake of being honest: 'Here's my raw shit, you may leave if you like, one day you'll see it made sense, one day you may be grateful that I took it up on me to bring you the tough news'.
No.
I am not quite sure about you but to me the painful message has to serve a purpose. I wish to express the reason of my frankness and the reason of my timing, i.e. why now.
In order to make sure the other person understands the reason of my honesty, I need to refer to his/her thoughts, feelings and point of view. I want to show I am understanding him/her before asking for any understanding concerning me. When it comes to bad news I have to show respect before being able to ask respect. Well, at least that's my point of departure. It does not mean I succeed.
I need to offer something more than mere pain. Getting a painful message to someone who I expect won't understand - not today anyway - is a no no to me. Telling my perception of the truth and hoping the other person may understand one day, is simply not good enough for me. I want more and I want it today. Today I am focused to ease any possible pain, today I can help. Tomorrow does not exist until tomorrow is today.
If there's nothing more than pain today, pain, incomprehension or dislike, I think - and feel - I've failed.
Needless to say I do not wish to spend any time causing pain, incomprehension or dislike, I have beter things to do in life.
People differ, they do not need to see it like I do. So I hold my tongue, think my thoughts, feel my feelings, shrug my shoulders and move on.
————————
Thanks for reading.
I hope you'll make it through the end, dear reader, I'll understand if you give up.————————
"Honesty and rational thinking is the way to go."
So, you know what honesty is, DArtagnan? You know what rational thinking is?
Your remarks remind me of times when I was younger, 18-25 years old, before Fate dumped some misfortune on me and I contemplated on life and on my life in particular.
But who knows, there may come a time where I will change my views again - life is change, and life is circular (as opposed to linear).
"Honesty and rational thinking is the way to go."
Let's bring in your personal space. Let's say you're a devil (or a god or a puppy or whatever, pick the one you like - those labels are irrelevant and do not represent my thoughts or feelings about you).
Let's say I say:
'You're a devil!'
But are you a devil all the time in every situation in the past and the present?
Unlikely.
'You're a devil sometimes!'
That's better. More truthful.
But hey, what's a devil actually? Opinions, definitions vary. Some might agree. Some may disagree, because they have never seen you behaving like a devil.
So it would be more correct to say:
'I think you're behaving like a devil sometimes.'
That would be most truthful, that would be honest.
Hm. Is it?
'I feel you're behaving like a devil sometimes.'
Wouldn't that be more correct? Or…?
'I think I feel you're behaving like a devil sometimes… '
Yup! Doing justice.
Funny: the more truthful, the more honest, the more modest. The more pleasant?
You acknowledged that things aren't simple:
"However, I really do feel (read: THINK)"
"However, the two concepts blur together - because sometimes you think because of something you feel - and sometimes you feel because of something you think."
Yes, things are not black and white. Do not automatically assume others know what you mean, if you value understanding - if you ask me. Also, I don't think it's wise to assume without hesitation that words picked are honest or truthful just because they're the ones that were in your head, be it once or a hundred times.
In my experience: replace any hidden exclamation point for a questionmark and you'll end up being more honest than when opening your mouth and just burping out thoughts or feelings.
IMHO taking time to place question marks, taking time to pick the right words, may not only improve honesty but kindness as well.
Honesty, being honest, according to you:
"It means coming across as an unpleasant person because you care enough about people to be honest."
"If you'd rather be pleasant to people than honest, that's your choice."
"No, I don't believe you can be both very often."
I do not regard it as an either or situation. I do not have to behave as an unpleasant person, or come across as an unpleasant person, just because I have unpleasant news.
I often think of it as a challenge: how to formulate it in such a way that my sour news is taken in and easily swallowed. N.B: never do I use any lies to sweeten my sour.
I have experienced people may be grateful, no matter how bad the news, when you show you have taken note of their thoughts, feelings and point of view.
When you say to me…
"You don't want to hear the truth unless it's delivered in a pleasant way. But truth is often NOT pleasant - so it can't be delivered like that."
… I'd like to say to you:
First. THE truth? I'm too well aware my truth is just one perception, as is yours, or anybody elses.
Often one perception does not exclude another; both can be true. So truth can be pleasant as well as unpleasant, depending on the perception. Perceptions can be changed. Constructive criticism is what I am talking of here, helping and supporting people. Now - not somewhere in the foreseeable future.
Second. To me deliverance in a pleasant way means one adjusts to one's conversational partner. I change my formulation, depending on the audience. I am not a stupid machine that has only one way of saying it, only one song to sing my message. No.
I can't imagine YOU'RE that restricted that your truth can be told in just one way. Isn't it the essence that counts rather than the form?
On to your motivation:
"Make it harder on myself and do what I feel is right."
"Of course I have consideration for the receiver. I have more consideration for the receiver than you do."
"There's the short-term reaction and there's the long-term reaction."
"The VAST majority of the human population are focused on short-term thinking. I'm not."
Me, I try to get the same reaction in the short term that I hope I'll get in the long term.
I too care about honesty. But I am not interested in hurting people just for the sake of being honest: 'Here's my raw shit, you may leave if you like, one day you'll see it made sense, one day you may be grateful that I took it up on me to bring you the tough news'.
No.
I am not quite sure about you but to me the painful message has to serve a purpose. I wish to express the reason of my frankness and the reason of my timing, i.e. why now.
In order to make sure the other person understands the reason of my honesty, I need to refer to his/her thoughts, feelings and point of view. I want to show I am understanding him/her before asking for any understanding concerning me. When it comes to bad news I have to show respect before being able to ask respect. Well, at least that's my point of departure. It does not mean I succeed.
I need to offer something more than mere pain. Getting a painful message to someone who I expect won't understand - not today anyway - is a no no to me. Telling my perception of the truth and hoping the other person may understand one day, is simply not good enough for me. I want more and I want it today. Today I am focused to ease any possible pain, today I can help. Tomorrow does not exist until tomorrow is today.
If there's nothing more than pain today, pain, incomprehension or dislike, I think - and feel - I've failed.
Needless to say I do not wish to spend any time causing pain, incomprehension or dislike, I have beter things to do in life.
People differ, they do not need to see it like I do. So I hold my tongue, think my thoughts, feel my feelings, shrug my shoulders and move on.
————————
Thanks for reading.
Thanks it's better than the last one. It didn't fit the name so well this one does.
JemyM
Okay, now roll sanity.
- Joined
- October 26, 2006
- Messages
- 6,027
I have to say, I was actually going to point it out as well. I like it.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 6,027
It looks like someone dropped a turd on a couch.
Come on not you to.Yes, but it's a potato flavoured turd!! lol
I just changed it and don't feel like changing it due to dirty minded minds.
Don't make me enter back into angry potato avatar mode.
Well that would turn me into a baked potato. I think I will sit here instead and fume in anger.Can you be an angry couch potato? I would think anger might make you leave the couch!!
That's it I'm changing it.
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And the chance to try out different avatars I have bunch of them.Ah, the power of the written word!! lol
S
Sacred_Path
Guest
DArtagnan is a pretty cool guy, eh always makes threads about himself and doesn't afraid of name calling.
[/obligatory]
[/obligatory]
- Joined
- October 18, 2006
- Messages
- 3,508
And the chance to try out different avatars I have bunch of them.
You need one that holds a controller!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2006
- Messages
- 3,508
D
DArtagnan
Guest
Long thread… Long posting, long reply.
————————
Battle of attrition
Not sure I have the stamina, but I'll try - I suppose.
They are not complex concepts, if you ask me. Honesty is speaking the truth as you understand it.
Rational thinking is, to me, an ideal that's hard to achieve - so we're not talking extremes. I guess it's a bit more complex than honesty. It's about consistency and the omission of emotional motivation. Sort of the pinnacle of the utilitarian approach.
I'm not surprised. You have no experience with people like me - because I'm not very common. So, I'm placed in a box that best matches your experience.
If I thought about people in that way, you'd remind me of myself when I was in my early teens. But I don't think of people in that way.
We all have the potential to change our minds - if we're open to it. Not that changing your mind is necessarily an evolution.
In that example, you're forgetting the rational thinking part. A rational person would do his or her best to be PRECISE.
This is why you'll never see me condemn a personality in its entirety. I do my utmost to be precise and to provide context for my opinions.
I don't believe in the concept of good and evil - so the example could never apply to someone like myself.
In short, you're underestimating the process I go through to an extreme degree.
I thought I made it clear that I'm fully aware that people don't automatically know what I mean. They generally don't know what I mean.
Of course I can be assured that I'm honest - how could you not be? Being honest is not the same as speaking truth - and I've never claimed to speak or know the truth.
So, I'm just "burping out" thoughts and feeling?
That's what you're doing - not what I'm doing.
Again, you have no idea what kind of process I've been through to arrive at my approach.
No, but you will come across as an unpleasant person to many people if you focus on honesty.
However, that's the INITIAL reaction. In real life - I'm well respected for my approach - and most people I know have come to appreciate me.
It's very different "online" - because communication is much more limited.
Yes, but I'm not interested in gratitude. I have no use for it.
If what I say can be misunderstood through being polite - I won't be. If it CAN'T be misunderstood (as I see it) - then I'll be polite.
That's me and my way of operating.
Again, the truth as the person delivering it knows it. We're not talking about scientific information or objective truth. We're talking about politicians - and if they know that the country is going bankrupt - they can deliver that truth in an honest way or a "pleasant" way. That's an example of what I'm talking about.
I'm not talking about just one way - I'm talking about the honest way. The precise way. You can deliver precise information in many ways - but if you mix it up with pleasant delivery - it will often be anything BUT precise.
That's my point.
Do you honestly believe I'm interesting in hurting people? If so, then you haven't understood anything I'm saying.
I do what I do BECAUSE I don't want people to get hurt. That's the only reason - the ONLY reason.
Try to appreciate that for a second.
We disagree about how to best achieve that - and sometimes it takes hurt to prevent a greater hurt.
That's my opinion.
My message always serves a purpose. At least, that's my ideal. You're not getting it at all, are you?
Ultimately, it depends on the severity of information. If we're talking about everyday stuff - then it doesn't have to be blunt. But if it's important in any way - I prefer not to manipulate information or try to imagine how it's received. I'd rather deliver precise and useful information.
I would never offer any message if the objective was pain alone. It's really disturbing that you'd think so.
If you believe you can always be fully honest and still ease the pain - then we simply disagree. That's all there is to it.
The only way you can perceive my approach is to see me as a person who wishes to cause pain?
Think about that for a minute.
DA, how important is it to you that people read what you write ?
I'm just wondering because you do seem to put a great of effort into it.
I think that people switch off after a while especially when threads become like these.
It happens a lot with Jemy's threads when they start getting cut into thirty replies as things get too long and cumbersome.
It seems people have a hard time focusing on a core subject on forums (in real life it would just turn into a new subject but on forums it becomes a quote/reply fest).
I'm just wondering because you do seem to put a great of effort into it.
I think that people switch off after a while especially when threads become like these.
It happens a lot with Jemy's threads when they start getting cut into thirty replies as things get too long and cumbersome.
It seems people have a hard time focusing on a core subject on forums (in real life it would just turn into a new subject but on forums it becomes a quote/reply fest).