I am confused, Japanese developers looked down on Western games

Making tourists pay unnormal high prices is what you'll probably find with taxi drivers all over in the world.

He didn't actually, I got to pay minimum amount, but I think it is the first time he drove a customer less than 50 meters... guess he though I was really lazy.

Oh, I see. :lol:

JRPGs: oversized swords, spiky hair, teenage agnst and horrid unskippable dialog and cutscenes.

"Cloud..." *click* "..." *click* "..." *click* "..." *click* "..." *click* "No..." *click* "..." *click* "..." *click* "..." *click* "..!" *click*

JRPGs aren't really RPGs in my book, more like adventures with a lot of random combats. I don't recall ever actually getting to make a decision in a JRPG. Granted I don't play many of them but I did try the demo of Last Remenant, that was horrible.

I haven't really enjoyed a JRPG in quite some time. The older I get, the less I like them.

LuckyCarbon said:

JRPGs: oversized swords, spiky hair, teenage agnst and horrid unskippable dialog and cutscenes.

"Cloud…" *click* "…" *click* "…" *click* "…" *click* "…" *click* "No…" *click* "…" *click* "…" *click* "…" *click* "..!" *click*

JRPGs aren't really RPGs in my book, more like adventures with a lot of random combats. I don't recall ever actually getting to make a decision in a JRPG. Granted I don't play many of them but I did try the demo of Last Remenant, that was horrible.

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I actually consider jRPGs more RPGs than western RPGs but that's because to me the RPGness of a game is not about decision making (which really has only been in cRPGs in the last 10 years or so... how many decisions did you make in Wizardry 1,2,3,4,5, any of the Bard's Tales, Eye of the Beholders, etc.

There are several traditions in role-playing gaming.

One is about "making decisions", one is about "exploring" and so on.

There are different people discussing different aspects of games.

JRPGs are to me a bit like … Spring Rolls, which are a kind of food fairly unique to the asian market - and from there it spread into the world. Or Pizza as well. Or Döner.

But - if you look at it, Spring Rolls are just nother take on Crêpes, or at Pfannkuchen. Only, that Spring Rolls are filled with various stuff. But on the other hand, you can find filled Crêpes and Pfannkuchen as well.

It's just … - a totally different look at something.

We describe RPGs from different angles - just like an Elephant is described by blind men …

The "They need to copy Western RPGs in order to be successful" idea is bullshit. They need to develop their own ideas, and make the kinds of games they want to make. If they fail it's because they failed to implement their *own* vision correctly, or because they didn't adjust their budget properly to the size of their audience.

There's tons of copy-cat games out there, and largely they're crap. Lionheart tried to copy Fallout and Infinity Engine games, and it was crap. How many games tried to copy Diablo or EverQuest and ended up being huge, steaming piles? Jeff Vogel has copied himself so often his games are starting to look like a picture that's been photocopied too many times. FOBOS tried to copy Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, and was likewise crappy (as was Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, incidentally).

There are a few exceptions, like nearly every RPG (including JRPGs like Dragon Quest) copying Ultima and Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder copying Dungeon Master, etc.

[edit]
Forgot to mention the dozens of Russian and Eastern European Fallout: Tactics and Jagged Alliance clones, most of which are total junk.

A more or less related article : http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=265400

JDR13 said:

I haven't really enjoyed a JRPG in quite some time. The older I get, the less I like them.

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I have never enjoyed one. Never got into them. never will.

Icefire said:

I have never enjoyed one. Never got into them. never will.

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The "never will" highlight your lack of "objectivity" or "fairness".

I feel the article quoted in OP doubtful. The point is any words reported and not fully quoted are a very doubtful quote. Also it was a meeting in Japan in front of a mass of Japan developers, that shift a little the point of view.

About WRPG with a hero, male older strong and macho, firstly it was an answer to an aggressive question about WRPG where Japanese protagonist are "always" effeminate dandy and where heroes are "always" male macho marine.

The question was very aggressive but the answer (reported) isn't. In no way the answer reported let think that all WRPG use a hero macho marine. Instead the answer focus on a key difference between JRPG and WRPG, focus of realism or believability. For some reason I never pinpoint realism is an obsession in Western gaming. I could expend this realism obsession to many points:

• A symbolic element are the graphics, instead on focusing on style the focus is on realism.
• Instead of focusing on pure gameplay value the focus is on story, acting, reach movie quality, realistic attacks and movements.
• Instead of focusing on Fantasy even in Fantasy RPG the focus is often on realistic elements. Hence Fantasy tends be middle age with some magic conventions.

Don't be wrong I don't write that all WRPG are glued in a strict realistic design, but there's a clear general tendency.

And the answer to the original question is also about a tendency in WRPG and explain it by a wish of realism or believability. And it's right that most WRPG that use a non anonymous hero also use a hero male older than teen and strong.
For the macho thing well let translate to virile and it's not that wrong.

The point is that many WRPG also use anonymous hero that let the player choose the gender. But if you look at WRPG with a hero with an history and background then I don't see much example that don't match rather well the definition, male older than teen strong and virile. The point is that a large part of WRPG players will be male and not that old and won't like much to have play a sensible woman heroine.

About JRPG vs WRPG it's another subject rather complicated.

Dasale said:

The "never will" highlight your lack of "objectivity" or "fairness".

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I have tried many JRPG's. On many different systems. From the original NES to the gameboy, to the PC and PS3. I dont care for the style. I cant see that changing unless the game style itself changes, which I dont think will happen.But you're right. I probably should have said I doubt I ever will.

I can't get into JRPGs either. I played the crap out of them as a teen but eventually they all became the same shallow crap. Now I can't even stand the art style. A bunch of pre-teens (some with beards) fighting teenagers who subvert gender roles (a majority of the villains) over dominance of a poorly realized fantasy world.

In this case, once you see the formula the appeal just vanishes. At least for me.

This is not to say I'm particularly fond with WRPG's at the moment either. Particularly since they're just rail-shooters with occasional forays into stats and/or inventory.

I miss CRPG's

Icefire said:

I have never enjoyed one. Never got into them. never will.

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That goes for me too. It would be unfair to say they are bad games because I have never even attempted to play one. Just looking at the art style and the 'teen' protagonists is enough to put me off. Not just from JRPGs but from anything that uses the same art style (anime, manga etc.)

Not all J-rpgs are like that......

GothicGothicness said:

Not all J-rpgs are like that……

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What JRPG would you recommend, then, that doesn't suffer from such issues?

Lost Odyssey, Demon Souls, Shadow Hearts to name a few.

GothicGothicness said:

Lost Odyssey, Demon Souls, Shadow Hearts to name a few.

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I have Demon's Souls - and I agree that's pretty brilliant, though I stopped playing it for some reason. I made the mistake of reading about all the loot available, so I could plan efficiently, and it sort of ruined my excitement because I know too much about what to expect.

Lost Odyssey? I seem to recall that name.

Shadow Hearts, I've never heard about.

Guess I'll do some research

The art style in shadow hearts might be too animish though… but it didn't feel like a j-rpg the prequal Koudelka was even less like a J-rpg though.

It is just hard to find the gems in the woods so to speak... the ones to sell the best are all the same so people assume all J-rpgs are like that.....

almost like assuming all WRPGs are like Mass Effect

GothicGothicness said:

The art style in shadow hearts might be too animish though… but it didn't feel like a j-rpg the prequal Koudelka was even less like a J-rpg though.

It is just hard to find the gems in the woods so to speak… the ones to sell the best are all the same so people assume all J-rpgs are like that…..

almost like assuming all WRPGs are like Mass Effect

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Well, you have to admit that JRPGs are more formulaic than western ones. Demon's Souls is a freak occurence from where I'm sitting.

Looking at pictures of Shadow Hearts and Lost Odyssey - all I'm seeing is a more mature art style - but the exact same grindy combat system that I've seen a zillion times before. I could be wrong, but they both seem VERY much like what has come before. Not that such a combat system is necessarily bad, but I find that they use it as a replacement for actual content. If you tell me it's not about endless loading screens and "clicky-text-dialogues" then there's a reason for me to try them

Western CRPGs have become rather samey, I admit, but we still see a lot of diversity. The Witcher, Mass Effect, Gothic, Dragon Age, and so forth are ALL very different - at least from my perspective.

We should also remember that Western RPGs have diverse developer backgrounds. American developers tend to focus on what will guarentee return of investment, where European developers tend to be more brave, and experiment with actual evolution of gameplay.