Bleeding heart liberals

Vii Zafira said:

@ Mrowakus

But you already know both what I truly feel about this topic and that even then I can't accept a single victim being created so let's talk instead about, I don't know, SNSD's new reality show or something. Anything, really, as long as it isn't related to this topic.

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Fine, let's leave it here. I've already touched upon the dangers of utilitarian approach and we both appear to agree. Unless Patrick comes back from his trip and adds something about that there's nothing that needs further clarification.

DArtagnan said:

DTE

It's interesting that you're so obsessed with these debates, but you never have the energy to actually go through them in a fruitful way.

How about actually investing and coming up with more than a paragraph of rhetoric.

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I'm not sure what you're requesting. As one of the very few righties posting in P&R, I'm usually carrying half the conversation all by my little lonesome, so I'm not sure where you're coming from. As for energy, Germany lost on a two front war; I'm generally carrying about 4 fronts in any given discussion and a couple of them regularly leave their intellectual integrity at the door. It's exhausting work. Not whining at all--it is what it is and it's not like the admins have banned me from everything but P&R (it's probably on their to-do list). Somebody's got to carry the torch or we'll all be swallowed in furry feel-goodie darkness.

DArtagnan said:

It's almost as if that's all you need to convince yourself and blind yourself, and then you can go on your merry way in that grayscale world of yours.

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I wish you learned oracles would stroke your beards together for a bit and get your story straight. You accuse me of a greyscale world when I regularly get accused of binary thinking. Can't really have it both ways. Not a wonder that I generally view psychology as a pseudo-science.

DArtagnan said:

Maybe it's not too late to openly admit doubts. Maybe you can actually experience joy again?

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Doubts are for pussies. Make your best decisions with the information available at the time and ride the horse until it drops. Occasionally, you end up on Bikini Atoll, but it's an honest, consistent, and self-determined life. What more could any person ask for?

I'm not sure what you're requesting. As one of the very few righties posting in P&R, I'm usually carrying half the conversation all by my little lonesome, so I'm not sure where you're coming from. As for energy, Germany lost on a two front war; I'm generally carrying about 4 fronts in any given discussion and a couple of them regularly leave their intellectual integrity at the door. It's exhausting work. Not whining at all—it is what it is and it's not like the admins have banned me from everything but P&R (it's probably on their to-do list). Somebody's got to carry the torch or we'll all be swallowed in furry feel-goodie darkness.

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Suggestion != request.

I wish you learned oracles would stroke your beards together for a bit and get your story straight. You accuse me of a greyscale world when I regularly get accused of binary thinking. Can't really have it both ways. Not a wonder that I generally view psychology as a pseudo-science.

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Greyscale is black and white in various shades, DTE

It's the kinder version of saying binary thinking.

Doubts are for pussies. Make your best decisions with the information available at the time and ride the horse until it drops. Occasionally, you end up on Bikini Atoll, but it's an honest, consistent, and self-determined life. What more could any person ask for?

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Doubts are for those who want to understand. I give you credit for admitting you don't want to, though!

@ Mrowakus

So cold.



@ Dteowner

Doubts are for pussies. Make your best decisions with the information available at the time and ride the horse until it drops. Occasionally, you end up on Bikini Atoll, but it's an honest, consistent, and self-determined life. What more could any person ask for?

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He's so totally KINZO!

DArtagnan said:

Doubts are for those who want to understand. I give you credit for admitting you don't want to, though!

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I beg to differ. Doubt simply means that you don't trust yourself to process the available information properly. Either you worry that you have insufficient information to make the choice (a correctable situation) or you worry that you'll bungle it. I have full confidence in myself on that front. I don't know how anyone wouldn't have such confidence. Note that that does not in any way imply that decisions won't turn out to be wrong based on additional information that shows up after the fact. Note further that "missing information" does not provide absolution for the consequences of a poor choice.

The trap with that mentality lies in drawing the line on "sufficient" information. Each person has to determine for themselves when they've gathered sufficient information to make a decision. Sometimes that won't work out so well. That's another horse to ride and sometimes you do end up on Bikini Atoll because of it, but such is life. Thrasher and Z will undoubtedly have some typically misguided snarky comment about ignorant closed minds and that's their right. I'll remind them of informational paralysis, talking versus doing, and personal responsibility. They'll ignore it and congratulate themselves for being so much smarter than me. The Earth will rotate.

@Vii- wuzzat? KINZO?

dteowner said:

I beg to differ. Doubt simply means that you don't trust yourself to process the available information properly. Either you worry that you have insufficient information to make the choice (a correctable situation) or you worry that you'll bungle it. I have full confidence in myself on that front. I don't know how anyone wouldn't have such confidence. Note that that does not in any way imply that decisions won't turn out to be wrong based on additional information that shows up after the fact. Note further that "missing information" does not provide absolution for the consequences of a poor choice.

The trap with that mentality lies in drawing the line on "sufficient" information. Each person has to determine for themselves when they've gathered sufficient information to make a decision. Sometimes that won't work out so well. That's another horse to ride and sometimes you do end up on Bikini Atoll because of it, but such is life. Thrasher and Z will undoubtedly have some typically misguided snarky comment about ignorant closed minds and that's their right. I'll remind them of informational paralysis, talking versus doing, and personal responsibility. They'll ignore it and congratulate themselves for being so much smarter than me. The Earth will rotate.

@Vii- wuzzat? KINZO?

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Every human being in the world has doubts, DTE.

You have lots of them yourself.

If you say you don't, you're a liar.

It's pretty simple.

However, if you want to pretend you go around acting without doubts - then be my guest. But you can be pretty sure I don't believe you

My suggestion was to admit them openly, because it's weak not to. It would become you to be open.

If you think ignoring your doubts makes you a "man" - then you're not just a liar - you're a moron as well.

But it's not a request.

BTW, no insult intended

Based on that, I don't think we're talking about the same thing when we say "doubts".

I believe you're aiming at "uncertainty", which I'm addressing with "insufficient information". I'm aiming at something closer to "regret". I've made numerous decisions in my life that turned out to be bad, but I wouldn't consider that admission to be "doubt". At this point, it's just a matter of record that becomes information for future decisions.

No insult taken. Didn't really see anything insulting in there.

dteowner said:

Based on that, I don't think we're talking about the same thing when we say "doubts".

I believe you're aiming at "uncertainty", which I'm addressing with "insufficient information". I'm aiming at something closer to "regret". I've made numerous decisions in my life that turned out to be bad, but I wouldn't consider that admission to be "doubt". At this point, it's just a matter of record that becomes information for future decisions.

No insult taken. Didn't really see anything insulting in there.

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Doubts are doubts. Basically, you're speaking as someone with sufficient information - and I know you don't have it.

So, I'm just saying it would become you - or even improve "you" to admit to the level of doubt you naturally have.

Again, it's a suggestion - and you've made it plain that you think it's for pussies to not act when you have "sufficient" information as you call it.

Then again, I'm not referring to your actions - as I've witnessed none of them. I'm talking about your statements, and what kind of person they seem to be articulated by.

It's more of a communication thing, which can be a first step towards larger changes.

I mean, you're almost as "certain" in your ways as Vii the teenager. You know?

Vii Zafira said:

@ Mrowakus

So cold.

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Can't help it Vii. It's goddamn freezing here. The only thing that keeps me from hibernating is my grandad's electric heater I inherited that saw Ruskies enter Czechoslovakia. Ok, that and the radiator from my PC.

DArtagnan said:

Every human being in the world has doubts, DTE.

You have lots of them yourself.

If you say you don't, you're a liar.

It's pretty simple.

However, if you want to pretend you go around acting without doubts - then be my guest. But you can be pretty sure I don't believe you

My suggestion was to admit them openly, because it's weak not to. It would become you to be open.

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Just give it a rest bro. The approach dteowner has can do you a lot of good. As long as you take full responsibility for your actions, acting upon the information you have and choosing the best solution is the way to go. It nets you clear conscience, gives you clearly defined goals and prevents getting peptic ulcers. You should totally try it some time.

Naturally, there are people full of themselves who despite the tough-talk will do their utmost to blame their responsibility on someone else, in spite of everyone having warned them about the consequence of their actions. I doubt (oh, snap) our friend is one of them, however.

DArtagnan said:

Doubts are doubts. Basically, you're speaking as someone with sufficient information - and I know you don't have it.

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Ah, but as I stated a couple posts back, "sufficient" is personally defined for any given decision, so whether you agree or disagree is immaterial. If you hand me an additional piece of the puzzle before the decision is made, then that gets incorporated into "sufficient" (or I choose to be willfully ignorant, but hopefully that doesn't happen too often--and since I own the decision and its consequences regardless, willful ignorance is neither a valid excuse nor an advantageous position so I've got no incentives to take that path). If you hand me an additional piece of the puzzle after the decision is made, then it's really irrelevant to the discussion we're having here.

Don't see "doubt" in there, at least as I'm understanding the term.

That's not to say I've always got sufficient information to meet my self-defined needs. There are decisions I simply cannot make without additional input. The whole "God" thing would be a fair example of that. Maybe you're calling that doubt, but I wouldn't. I don't particularly like situations like that, being a problem solver by nature, which might explain my aggressive agnosticism if we're going to do some serious beard stroking and navel gazing. Still wouldn't call that doubt, but maybe you would.

Just give it a rest bro. The approach dteowner has can do you a lot of good. As long as you take full responsibility for your actions, acting upon the information you have and choosing the best solution is the way to go. It nets you clear conscience, gives you clearly defined goals and prevents getting peptic ulcers. You should totally try it some time.

Naturally, there are people full of themselves who despite the tough-talk will do their utmost to blame their responsibility on someone else, in spite of everyone having warned them about the consequence of their actions. I doubt (oh, snap) our friend is one of them, however.

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I think I'll let DTE speak for himself.

As a non-pussy no-doubter - he should be able to manage that, right?

*EDIT* He just did

dteowner said:

Ah, but as I stated a couple posts back, "sufficient" is personally defined for any given decision, so whether you agree or disagree is immaterial. If you hand me an additional piece of the puzzle before the decision is made, then that gets incorporated into "sufficient" (or I choose to be willfully ignorant, but hopefully that doesn't happen too often—and since I own the decision and its consequences regardless, willful ignorance is neither a valid excuse nor an advantageous position so I've got no incentives to take that path). If you hand me an additional piece of the puzzle after the decision is made, then it's really irrelevant to the discussion we're having here.

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Problem is that you're ignoring every potential piece of any puzzle others present to you. You dismiss them with such frequency and such fervor - that you can't possibly have actually thought them through.

Like my boss, you're "argument-resistant". It's like speaking to a wall.

In that way, you're showing clear signs of discomfort with doubts - unless you've actually taken something to heart and I just missed it.

Don't see "doubt" in there, at least as I'm understanding the term.

That's not to say I've always got sufficient information to meet my self-defined needs. There are decisions I simply cannot make without additional input. The whole "God" thing would be a fair example of that. Maybe you're calling that doubt, but I wouldn't. I don't particularly like situations like that, being a problem solver by nature, which might explain my aggressive agnosticism if we're going to do some serious beard stroking and navel gazing. Still wouldn't call that doubt, but maybe you would.

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Not sure what we're talking about here.

Are you saying you're an agnostic without doubt?

That would be a first.

DArtagnan said:

Problem is that you're ignoring every potential piece of any puzzle others present to you. You dismiss them with such frequency and such fervor - that you can't possibly have actually thought them through.

Like my boss, you're "argument-resistant". It's like speaking to a wall.

In that way, you're showing clear signs of discomfort with doubts - unless you've actually taken something to heart and I just missed it.

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I've adjusted a few opinions over the years based on discussions here, but I've certainly reaffirmed more. Thing is, you're (and this would also apply to a broader "you") assuming that you're right when you present your arguments. That's fine, cuz so do I. So do we all. You think I'm a wall, you ought to go a couple rounds with Thrasher and Z. It's not like I don't present supporting documentation when the situation merits. It's not like I don't lay out the rational chains and even note when a link might be a little spongy. It all gets dismissed out of hand because they're "right" and I'm "wrong". If everyone's doing it based on their own self-certainty, why am I the only one that's "argument resistant"?

When all is said and done, it's going to be extremely rare when someone changes sides based on a forum discussion. Even among genuinely thoughtful people, it's probably going to be highly unusual to even have a "hadn't thought of that" moment. All we really accomplish is giving the foundations of our preconceived notions a good kick to make sure they don't come crashing down on our heads. And there's value in that sort of self-examination, so it's worth the effort and the abuse.

DArtagnan said:

Not sure what we're talking about here.

Are you saying you're an agnostic without doubt?

That would be a first.

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Again, I think we're operating on a different understanding of "doubt". Mentioning agnosticism was probably a bad choice since those words, in practical usage, tend to be a little fuzzy. When I say agnostic, that equals, "don't know, don't care". When I say aggressive agnostic, that equals, "don't know, don't care, and really wish everyone else would just leave it alone, too". That's probably not quite Webster approved usage, so I apologize for muddying the waters. Based on the additional information of your reaction, that was probably a poor choice, but I own it and have to deal with the consequences by typing another explanatory novel.

Regardless, there's no element of regret nor second-guessing in there, so no doubt. There's buckets of insufficient information, but that's not doubt.

@ Dteowner

@Vii- wuzzat? KINZO?

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Kinzo's a character from Umineko No Naku Koro Ni that embodies a philosophy similar to what you were talking about, as he's more or less the posterchild for picking your own truth, whatever you want your truth to be, and then betting all you have and will ever have on it no matter how insane, senseless, or delusional others may think it is.




Whether he's an eccentric madman lost in his own delusions or a defiant romantic hero right out from an italian opera depends on how you interpretate the story and his actions. I belong to the later group myself so take what I said as meaning that's so totally AWESOME!

But then being seen as cool by me probably means most other people considers you irrational, intractable, and really hard to deal with.



@ ChibiMrowak

It's goddamn freezing here.

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I'm envying you so bloody hard right now. I just want the bleeping summer to end so I can stop hiding underground from dawn to dusk.

mrowakus said:

Fine, let's leave it here. I've already touched upon the dangers of utilitarian approach and we both appear to agree. Unless Patrick comes back from his trip and adds something about that there's nothing that needs further clarification.

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The only thing I could try to add to the response I made on Wednesday would be an attempt of more detailed financial analysis (especially with respect to unemployment), but I'm not prepared to invest that much effort at this time and this is tangential anyway.

Vii Zafira said:

@ ChibiMrowak



I'm envying you so bloody hard right now. I just want the bleeping summer to end so I can stop hiding underground from dawn to dusk.

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I thought that the people who prefer winter to summer appeared only in myths and legends. As soon as I step outside, I'm freezing my wits off. Right now, I'd hibernate if I could.

@ Patrick

I thought that the people who prefer winter to summer appeared only in myths and legends. As soon as I step outside, I'm freezing my wits off. Right now, I'd hibernate if I could.

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I have a pretty good resistance to cold climates, myself. On the other hand, summer for me is that season where I am bound to air conditioned places until nightfall. I am really sensible to warm weather so I start feeling faint, awkward, and in a totally bitchy mood as the climate grows warmer and spring moves forward.

Then, my skin is really delicate so it gets dry, ugly, and hurt if I am in the summer, or even spring, sun for too long. And by hurt I mean, like, I start looking like I just ran through a thicket of thorny bushes. And then I don't like my skin getting darker, so I can't play outside all the same. The tanned look doesn't fit my image at all.

And Autumn is the best fashion time anyway.

@Vii

Vii Zafira said:

I have a pretty good resistance to cold climates, myself. On the other hand, summer for me is that season where I am bound to air conditioned places until nightfall. I am really sensible to warm weather so I start feeling faint, awkward, and in a totally bitchy mood as the climate grows warmer and spring moves forward.

Then, my skin is really delicate so it gets dry, ugly, and hurt if I am in the summer, or even spring, sun for too long. And by hurt I mean, like, I start looking like I just ran through a thicket of thorny bushes. And then I don't like my skin getting darker, so I can't play outside all the same. The tanned look doesn't fit my image at all.

And Autumn is the best fashion time anyway.

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I've actually run through a ticket of thorny bushes in a trekking event last year and it wasn't a nice feeling to say the least, so I emphatise.

A small advice, if I may: Be careful that you get enough vitamin D (its availability from food sources is low, the best way to get it is by exposure to the sun, so when the sun is low, like during the winter during the I supplement 2000 IU in capsules) through food (salmon, tuna, mackerel, of course fresh straight from the boat, no cans) and supplementation since you don't sunbathe.

Also, how do you avoid the tendency to grow fangs and start regular nightly visits to a blood bank?

Anyway, since you seem to have spare time during the day, with school holiday and staying indoors during the day, you might do a LP, or a Let's Opera (the Watch seems to be in desperate need for some class), like you used to do on the Codex, of course if that is your wish. Your LPs were always interesting to read (someone has just necroed your LO of Verdi's Troubadour on the Codex).

Make sure you don't get a sun allergy either. Yes, it really exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photodermatitis

And yes, Vitamine D is also very important.

In the forum about HSPs I'm in there are quite a lot of different people - some love cold weather and bicker around diuring the summer - others love warm weather and ask "when will the winter End" ... So, people are really different.

But what they all have in common is a high sensitivity in general.

@ Patrick

A small advice, if I may: Be careful that you get enough vitamin D

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I'm assuming my levels of that thingie are below the sea level. What does it do?

Also, how do you avoid the tendency to grow fangs and start regular nightly visits to a blood bank?

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Hahaha, yes. If the vampire jokes and the unseelie court jokes were to stop it would be, like, totally disorienting.

you might do a LP, or a Let's Opera

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I was thinking of continuing with Il Trovatore in here, but before that I need to to repost all the previous stuffies here and for that I need to ask Erika to copy for me the source code thingie of the posts. She's kind of bussy right nao, so I'm waiting until she is free before bothering her with it.

@ Alrik

Make sure you don't get a sun allergy either. Yes, it really exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photodermatitis

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The description makes it sound pretty similar to what happens to my skin, though in my case the "blotches" never happen in my face but elsewhere.

Is there a way to get an actual diagnosis without standing in the sun until I look like a bloody leper and then going to visit a dermatologist?

@Vii

Vii Zafira said:

@ Patrick



I'm assuming my levels of that thingie are below the sea level. What does it do?

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It is critical to the bone health (which includes the teeth, including the above mentioned fangs) and strength (it increases apsorption of calcium in the instestines and promotes calcium absorption in the bones, simultaneously preventing the release of calcium from the bones) and the immunity (it promotes activation of T Cells and synthesis of certain antibacterial peptides). There are other potential useful actions of vitamin D in being researched (it may have anticarcinogenic properties, for example), but so far the two I've mentioned are conclusively proven.

What you need is vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol), which is a kind of vitamin D that is synthesised in response to the exposure to sun and which can directly be converted to active compounds.

Hahaha, yes. If the vampire jokes and the unseelie court jokes were to stop it would be, like, totally disorienting.

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I had to google "unseelie court". Knowledge +1.

I was thinking of continuing with Il Trovatore in here, but before that I need to to repost all the previous stuffies here and for that I need to ask Erika to copy for me the source code thingie of the posts. She's kind of bussy right nao, so I'm waiting until she is free before bothering her with it.

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I will use my 'dex account to copy the source code of the posts and send them to you via PM, so you can repost them and continue on your leisure.

Added by edit: I have sent you the first post, which I had to break into two parts. Now you can just copy / paste the code in a new topic. I will try to send you the rest later today, I have to go now.

As for the diagnosis, you should just describe your problem to your GP and the GP will refer you to the dermatologist. You should be on friendly terms with your GP.