My thoughts after completing Alpha Protocol

I was talking about most gamers in general, not just most rpg fans. I'd say you're in a minority, reloading to find a weak spot is fun for me, and I don't see a lot of people complaining. I was just responding to your "there's some sadistic desire to piss people off and get their blood pressure up" remark. No, most gamers like that and it doesn't pisses them off.

DArtagnan said:

The boss fight mentioned, in particular, was HIGHLY inconsistent with the rest of the game up until that point.

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Why is it inconsistent?

Because you couldn't kill him by using the same tactics as most enemies (i.e stealth is useless).

Then again, I seem to recall Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and so on with fairly crazy boss fights, so it's hardly anything new.

I don't care either way; I'm in it for the characters, story and so on.

Malk said:

Why is it inconsistent?

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A few of us have been saying why more than once in this thread alone, so if you still don't agree - chances are you never will.

You apparently don't think the game was trying to come off as a semi-realistic spy game - and you apparently didn't find the fight in question any different from the rest.

I've been trying to figure out how that's possible, and I just can't.

So, I have to conclude we're from different planets

I´d say buffed up bosses in AP are ok, at least as long as one takes it as a nod to cheesier side of spy flicks.
Besides, the fact that to kill them one or two headshots are not enough can be credited to the certain level of abstraction involved in AP´s gameplay.

However, Brayko is still a glaring exception to this. That invulnerability stage simply doesn ´t make any sense at all. I wouldn´t be surprised if it gets patched out, really. Still, it´s just one and only case where designers truly dropped the ball on boss-fight consistency, in my book.

I guess some players just have problems accepting the rpg-abstraction part because the game has a "real world" setting, not sci-fi/fantasy.

That said, boss fights in AP aren´t particularly well thought out and I´d still prefer more headshot-resilient bosses to have helmets for example and the game would probably also benefited from having more anti-vehicular and such confrontations, as opposed to mano-a-mano ones.

Pretty much revolutionary narrative concepts, interdependent game systems, solid story and characters is where AP´s at. A lot of things introduced in the game deserves to be explored (and refined) further so I really hope Obsidian will get a chance to continue with the franchise, though it unfortunately seems rather unlikely at the moment. These guys will just never fully take off, will they?

It still pisses me off to no end seeing 6.3/10 for AP on a site that´s given Mass Effect 2 9.6/10.

The only thing I found annoying about that particular boss battle was due to the fact that the game (on Normal) was so easy, I'd stopped wearing armour in the hopes it might offer some tiny challenge. It did, until I got to that boss and I couldn't defeat him unarmoured. I had to go back and replay the mission with my armour then it was a cake walk.

DArtagnan said:

You apparently don't think the game was trying to come off as a semi-realistic spy game - and you apparently didn't find the fight in question any different from the rest.

I've been trying to figure out how that's possible, and I just can't.

So, I have to conclude we're from different planets

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I gave you some examples earlier. The entire game is unrealistic.

On the side note, why did you wrote:

No, I was talking about consistency.

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after I wrote:

You're saying boss fights are bad because they're not as realistic as the rest of the game.

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If boss fights are bad because they're not as realistic as the rest of the game, then that has very much to do with consistency. You got me confused there a bit.

Malk said:

I gave you some examples earlier. The entire game is unrealistic.

On the side note, why did you wrote:

after I wrote:

If boss fights are bad because they're not as realistic as the rest of the game, then that has very much to do with consistency. You got me confused there a bit.

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I'm sorry you're confused, but it's pretty simple.

The consistency in itself is the issue, not the WAY in which it is inconsistent.

The problem is that the game plays one way for the most part, and then "turns around" and becomes something else during the fight in question.

I don't give two shits about realism, really. I just want a game to be consistent - and if 99% of the fights in the game work a certain way, I don't want a mid-game boss fight to completely change the rules around.

I don't like that - and it's not immersive.

The game isn't a simulation of real life - we can agree on that. But it establishes a few rules along the way - like headshots being lethal. I realise the other boss fights aren't "one shot to the head = dead" - but they're "reasonable" all the same.

Now, I prefer no boss fights whatsoever in the traditional sense, because I think it's an archaic design crutch based on a flawed perception of what people want. You can have a very satisfying conclusion without such a fight, but designers have yet to figure that out.

But, it SEEMED to me, that Obsidian would have known not to include such a stupid fight - and I was frankly shocked to encounter it in this game.

Well of course a boss fight doesn't work the same way as the rest of the fights. If it did it wouldn't be a boss fight. Again, if you and booboo don't like them, that doesn't mean that developers are dumb for implementing them - there are plenty of other people who do like them.

I only get immersed in open (or semi-open) world rpgs, so I won't comment on that.

malk said:

well of course a boss fight doesn't work the same way as the rest of the fights. If it did it wouldn't be a boss fight.

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qft ……

Malk said:

Well of course a boss fight doesn't work the same way as the rest of the fights. If it did it wouldn't be a boss fight. Again, if you and booboo don't like them, that doesn't mean that developers are dumb for implementing them - there are plenty of other people who do like them.

I only get immersed in open (or semi-open) world rpgs, so I won't comment on that.

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I said INCLUDING the other boss fights.

I realise the other boss fights aren't "one shot to the head = dead" - but they're "reasonable" all the same.

Whether or not the developers are dumb, I can't really say. I can say they fucked up royally if they were trying to create a hit - which is pretty evident when you read the general mainstream response.

Now, you can dance around trying to dismiss what I'm saying, but the sooner you accept that it's just an opinion and that the fight in question is COMPLETELY different from the rest - the sooner we can stop wasting our time.

You didn't mind - great, but I did. That's all there is to it.

I wouldn't call it completely differant from the rest. Other fights, like Darcy's, are quite similar in many aspects.

Davion said:

I wouldn't call it completely differant from the rest. Other fights, like Darcy's, are quite similar.

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Example?

What other boss requires you to evade him until he's exhausted or a similar puzzle-element, and can't be put down even with 100 headshots?

Must have been during the last stage that I didn't get to, then

DArtagnan said:

Now, you can dance around trying to dismiss what I'm saying, but the sooner you accept that it's just an opinion and that the fight in question is COMPLETELY different from the rest - the sooner we can stop wasting our time.

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You're saying that like it's a fact, not just an opinion. COMPLETELY different from the rest? No way, bunch of other bosses need figuring out - vehicle fight in Saudi (you have to pick up rocket launchers in order to destroy it… at least if you play a stealthy character), Sean Darcy (you can't get to him, so you have to find a sniper post and shoot him from there), Parker (disabling the security before you can engage him)…

Malk said:

You're saying that like it's a fact, not just an opinion. COMPLETELY different from the rest? No way, bunch of other bosses need figuring out - vehicle fight in Saudi (you have to pick up rocket launchers in order to destroy it… at least if you play a stealthy character), Sean Darcy (you can't get to him, so you have to find a sniper post and shoot him from there), Parker (disabling the security before you can engage him)…

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Needing figuring out isn't the issue.

Damage immunity at point blank range, is the issue.

Err…

DArtagnan said:

Example?

What other boss requires you to evade him until he's exhausted or a similar puzzle-element

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Malk said:

Err…

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Ehm, why did you leave out the last vital part of the sentence?

and can't be put down even with 100 headshots?

I wonder if you're really interested in understanding my point of view, or if you're the sort of person who simply must be right - even if you can't be.

If so, I must advise you to find a different kind of person with which to have such a "debate"

100 headshots ? The skull just wouldn't survive that, even less the flesh. The tissue would be rather some kind of mush.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

100 headshots ? The skull just wouldn't survive that, even less the flesh. The tissue would be rather some kind of mush.

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That's the kind thing I was hoping for

The other bosses (read, not vehicles) - took a few shots to the head before going down, but I could live with that.

But, when the entire game otherwise presents human beings as being VERY vulnerable to a bullet in the brain, it doesn't bode well for consistency when a coked-up rockstar can somehow survive endless salvos fired directly into the head

It's not good for my immersion, I tell you

DArtagnan said:

Ehm, why did you leave out the last vital part of the sentence?

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Because I thought it's not relevant. You asked for examples of boss fights which have some sort of a puzzle element, I gave you those examples, and then you go: "puzzle elements (needing figuring) are not important". I guess I misunderstood your "and" for an "or" when it was strictly "and".

It's really strange to me that you quit playing because of a (in my mind) such a small designer error. You had some other major problem with the game, or…?

Malk said:

Because I thought it's not relevant. You asked for examples of boss fights which have some sort of a puzzle element, I gave you those examples, and then you go: "puzzle elements (needing figuring) are not important". I guess I misunderstood your "and" for an "or" when it was strictly "and".

It's really strange to me that you quit playing because of a (in my mind) such a small designer error. You had some other major problem with the game, or…?

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It's relevant

No, I asked for examples of boss fights which have puzzle elements AND the immunity mentioned.

At least you admit it was a design error