Sure, but there is some marvelous poetry in the King James translation that is a part of our heritage and one might save that from the trash can. When we can see religions in their historical context and relegate them to the past, then perhaps we can make a truly compassionate and inclusive society.
Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’
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ManWhoJaped
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Kind of sad, really. I don't think this is anything to do with tolerance like some seem to think. There's never been a tolerance problem in christianity itself or in any policies of christian churches. You should stick up for your beliefs but now they are giving into the new age BS of evangelic televangelist crap.
The reason they are turning to that in the first place if because of terrible popes who have been very weak. But whatever catholics are a joke for some time now anyway.
The reason they are turning to that in the first place if because of terrible popes who have been very weak. But whatever catholics are a joke for some time now anyway.
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Christianity, like almost all religions has had issues with tolerance!! The Inquisition springs to mind. It was run by the Jesuits, the same group the current Pope belongs to!! Having said that, 'Christianity' is SUPPOSED to be tolerant (turn the other cheek, etc). The problem has always been the way people interpret various verses of scripture to suit their own (usually political) ends!!
ManWhoJaped
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Inquisition was 1% religious and 99% political and did not touch most countries in any meaningful way. Anything else you hear is just propaganda like the flat earth stuff. It only came about in the time of protestant reformation, it's revisionist history.
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Except that you can then say almost anything religious is politically motivated.
The Inquisition was, like five hundred years ago. Anyone civilized now should have some level of tolerance.
But which Catholics? I'm a Catholic and have attended masses all over the world. No two churches do things exactly the same. There is some Catholic Church in Italy still doing some festival of blood I never heard of. I think it is so much in your perception of religion. MWJ, you are too smart to use such a sweeping general statement like that.
So, a person going on a walk or run or on a exercice machine and saying a prayer quietly is politically motivated? I think not.
People's reality is their perception of reality. Most people's perception is too heavily flawed by the past. The best advice is don't dwell.
But which Catholics? I'm a Catholic and have attended masses all over the world. No two churches do things exactly the same. There is some Catholic Church in Italy still doing some festival of blood I never heard of. I think it is so much in your perception of religion. MWJ, you are too smart to use such a sweeping general statement like that.
So, a person going on a walk or run or on a exercice machine and saying a prayer quietly is politically motivated? I think not.
People's reality is their perception of reality. Most people's perception is too heavily flawed by the past. The best advice is don't dwell.
One tiny note, the Inquisition still exists within the Catholic church, you just don't hear about it, but ask a Jesuit, they know!! The brother of one of my very good friends is a Jesuit priest.
ManWhoJaped
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Sorry, I don't mean specific catholics, I mean the leadership has been poor for a very long time.
Here we are and christians are slaughtered regularly in the middle east and the pope is criticizing his own people for being too rigid. Meanwhile muslim leaders are organizing riots over the arrest of terrorists. I am not saying be more like muslims, but it would seem the priorities are completely wrong. If the pope is not going to say anything on the behalf of these people being murdered then who will?
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...almost anything religious on the world stage then
You make the simple mistake of assuming the Pope is a Christian!!
It can be argued that Catholics are actually more Pagan than Christian; they certainly ignore key parts of the Bible (such as not making graven images which is totally pagan), but then most people, including priests aren't really Bible scholars. The Catholic Cardinal for Australia has almost no knowledge of the Old Testament, for example!!
You make some really interesting points Corwin. I will have to look into that statement regarding the Inquisition. I have a relative who's brother-in law is a priest and I can ask him but I have a feeling that is not a good topic of conversation. Pretty sure that burnings at the stake are finished but ex-communication continues along with stupidity like shunning which is not a Catholic only tradition. Like I said earlier, distance changes people and it changes religion customs and practices also.
I was taught the old testament in sunday school as a child in a catholic school and sunday school. Not sure where your Cardinal came from or how he got ordained without learning the Bible. As far as graven images go, you must be referring to Icons which are Orthodox traditions.
Statues, stained glass, crosses, depictions of saints are only artwork meant to inspire prayer and meditations. I have never worshipped saints but I believe it would be a mistake to forget them for some of their lives are very inspirational and can illustrate the power of God working though their lives. I see only beauty when I walk into a Church. I love architecture but I don't understand a church that has nothing in it but chairs or take the Blue Mosque which is completely empty except for the cheap carpet that you could find in any motel. Any Christian Church should never make an apology for having a cross up. I have visited lots of different denominations and I always perceived them as Christians as well.
I agree with MHJ that this should be a time when Christians should come back together somewhat. I'm not naïve enough to suggest one universal way of worship but we should all be brave enough to speak out about atrocities occurring now and against things like female slavery. The media needs to stop calling it woman captured to become wives. It's slavery.
I was taught the old testament in sunday school as a child in a catholic school and sunday school. Not sure where your Cardinal came from or how he got ordained without learning the Bible. As far as graven images go, you must be referring to Icons which are Orthodox traditions.
Statues, stained glass, crosses, depictions of saints are only artwork meant to inspire prayer and meditations. I have never worshipped saints but I believe it would be a mistake to forget them for some of their lives are very inspirational and can illustrate the power of God working though their lives. I see only beauty when I walk into a Church. I love architecture but I don't understand a church that has nothing in it but chairs or take the Blue Mosque which is completely empty except for the cheap carpet that you could find in any motel. Any Christian Church should never make an apology for having a cross up. I have visited lots of different denominations and I always perceived them as Christians as well.
I agree with MHJ that this should be a time when Christians should come back together somewhat. I'm not naïve enough to suggest one universal way of worship but we should all be brave enough to speak out about atrocities occurring now and against things like female slavery. The media needs to stop calling it woman captured to become wives. It's slavery.
Humanity has risen!
SasqWatch
The problem is that for liberals and liberal Christians, being "tolerant and compassionate" means being meek, compromising on scriptural truth, and tolerant of any behavior even when it clearly goes against the scriptures. It means ultimately being marginalized into nothing. It's not making people any service when a desire to please people at all costs means approving of clearly sinful behaviors.
As I saw someone day, we are nicing people right into Hell.
To be a Christian means being compassionate, of course, but it means just as much to stand tall in front of adversity, and to be brave and uncompromising in promoting the gospel. It means looking at people's feelings through biblical truth, not looking at biblical truth through people's feelings.
As I saw someone day, we are nicing people right into Hell.
To be a Christian means being compassionate, of course, but it means just as much to stand tall in front of adversity, and to be brave and uncompromising in promoting the gospel. It means looking at people's feelings through biblical truth, not looking at biblical truth through people's feelings.
Redman, a graven image can be anything from a statue of Mary to a crucifix (not a cross). If people pray to it, it is an Idol and the Bible comes out VERY strongly against any form of idolatry. Representing any person and using it in worship is making a graven image. Mere decoration is not an issue; I love visiting beautiful cathedrals, it's when such things are used or venerated that we have a problem. Remembering the 'saints' is fine, but praying to them is akin to idolatry and totally contrary to the Bible. A major problem with the Catholic church is that it makes human traditions equal with the Bible and sometimes elevates them above the Bible. The Bible itself comes down quite strongly against this!!
Humanity has risen!
SasqWatch
I'm sorry but this is another evangelical misconception, Catholics do not pray to saints (or idols/graven images), we pray with the saints, to the Holy Trinity.
Also, the Bible itself disproves sola scriptura. Church tradition is authoritative as well.
I am a Catholic, and I was determined to go into the most theologically sound denomination, and that's why I remained in the church, and why I and my wife are to raise our two young children within it.
Also, the Bible itself disproves sola scriptura. Church tradition is authoritative as well.
I am a Catholic, and I was determined to go into the most theologically sound denomination, and that's why I remained in the church, and why I and my wife are to raise our two young children within it.
Where does the Bible disprove sola scriptura? Why does the Bible say tradition has NO authority? Oh, and the Bible clearly shows you are NOT to pray to the Trinity (which term is not mentioned), but to Jesus who is the mediator between God and man.
ManWhoJaped
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I think you are wrong about graven images, it's not the same thing as worshipping an idol. I don't think there's much pagan left to catholics either. If anything splitting from them would be heretical I'd think. If anything most protestants basically judaized - they threw out a lot of old accepted books that explained the difference between jews and christians for example. So it's hard to argue any of them are true christians any more because the catholics and protestants have change dramatically even in just the last 500 years.
What I meant though is the current pope is more worried about numbers and money and not offending people than he is about horrible stuff abroad and that means may as well put khomeini as the pope as him. Go back to the irish genocides and look what the church did - absolutely nothing even though at the time it was supposedly this giantly powerful organization. Even the ottoman empire sent aid to Irish but not the church.
It only gets bashed on by anarchists/communists/atheists in the sense of painting it as some giant evil organization. For example it was not church who persecuted people it was secular governments who decided to do so and the inquisitors were generally actually lawyers, and many times former jews. I don't think it's true catholic church is some big evil organization but if it's not willing to defend or advocate defending its own people even in the heart of europe and the holy land it's a real useless joke of an organization.
I am not that religious but I think that the core moral values of christianity are very important to having a society that isn't worthless trash. That is what the people villainizing christianity (especially they go after catholics as they have numbers) are really doing. It's not much different from how the jihaders work, really. To plant their own seeds they have to attack and tear down everything else or they won't ever be able to completely take over. And that's ultimately what almost everyone wants.
To make the world islamic and under their power, or communistic, or jewish or whatever. However that kind of world completely sucks. Most of the people coming to europe and its colonies come from places that have been completely ruined by the very doctrines they want to push onto the countries they are coming to!
What I meant though is the current pope is more worried about numbers and money and not offending people than he is about horrible stuff abroad and that means may as well put khomeini as the pope as him. Go back to the irish genocides and look what the church did - absolutely nothing even though at the time it was supposedly this giantly powerful organization. Even the ottoman empire sent aid to Irish but not the church.
It only gets bashed on by anarchists/communists/atheists in the sense of painting it as some giant evil organization. For example it was not church who persecuted people it was secular governments who decided to do so and the inquisitors were generally actually lawyers, and many times former jews. I don't think it's true catholic church is some big evil organization but if it's not willing to defend or advocate defending its own people even in the heart of europe and the holy land it's a real useless joke of an organization.
I am not that religious but I think that the core moral values of christianity are very important to having a society that isn't worthless trash. That is what the people villainizing christianity (especially they go after catholics as they have numbers) are really doing. It's not much different from how the jihaders work, really. To plant their own seeds they have to attack and tear down everything else or they won't ever be able to completely take over. And that's ultimately what almost everyone wants.
To make the world islamic and under their power, or communistic, or jewish or whatever. However that kind of world completely sucks. Most of the people coming to europe and its colonies come from places that have been completely ruined by the very doctrines they want to push onto the countries they are coming to!
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By any reasonable definition, a crucifix IS still a graven image which is forbidden in the Bible!! I won't even bother getting into the doctrinal issue of a crucifix keeping Christ ON the cross when the important thing was that He overcame the cross and ROSE from the dead!!
Hexprone
Thou hast lost an eighth!
[Edit: lol, excuse me for the hasty post. I hadn't seen this thread before, so I responded to the initial page as if it were still relevant. I'll sit out of the discussion on whether there's a difference between an icon and an idol.]
The church can adopt whatever tone it likes in public statements .
It's not going to stop being an abusive institution — in all the many ways it is one, not only the stereotypical one — while it has so much money invested in keeping its secrets.
There are many good people of sincere faith in the Catholic church at all levels — and perhaps this Pope is one of them. But each of those people however well-intentioned necessarily gives some of their energy — and some of their money — to supporting the church hierarchy with all its secrecy, corruption and tacit support of violence.
As long as that's true, statements of tolerance from the Vatican, like statements of compassion from individual parish priests, only serve to put a pretty face on an ugly reality.
That's why I belong to a church with congregational governance. Any church might have problems with corruption or abusive members — but when there's direct accountability at the level of the local church, I can be sure no portion of my donation or my collective voice as a church member goes to anything I would be ashamed to voice support for publically.
The church can adopt whatever tone it likes in public statements .
It's not going to stop being an abusive institution — in all the many ways it is one, not only the stereotypical one — while it has so much money invested in keeping its secrets.
There are many good people of sincere faith in the Catholic church at all levels — and perhaps this Pope is one of them. But each of those people however well-intentioned necessarily gives some of their energy — and some of their money — to supporting the church hierarchy with all its secrecy, corruption and tacit support of violence.
As long as that's true, statements of tolerance from the Vatican, like statements of compassion from individual parish priests, only serve to put a pretty face on an ugly reality.
That's why I belong to a church with congregational governance. Any church might have problems with corruption or abusive members — but when there's direct accountability at the level of the local church, I can be sure no portion of my donation or my collective voice as a church member goes to anything I would be ashamed to voice support for publically.
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Hexprone
Thou hast lost an eighth!
I'll just comment to say how sorry I am to see you use the word "meek" as if it were a kind of spiritual weakness.
It isn't.