Europe's 9/11

Alrik Fassbauer

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Hello everyone,

you probably have heard it in the news already :

2 islamic fanatics murdered several employees of an French Satire Magazine.

This is Europe's 9/11 - because it is an direct attack on the Freedom
and on the Culture ( ! ) of Europe.

No-one has ever tried to actually kill employees of an Satire Magazine.
There have been death threats and other shit, but actually going in with guns and murdering ? This is new.

Even more disturbing is the report of one of the only still living witnesses : That the murderers did "perfectly speak French".

which means that they have been livinbg within France for quite a long time. Or at least somewhere where the French language is spoken.

This isn't new, either : Fanatics often grow up WITHIN a country they attack later.
They even get "fanatized" there.

The cynic in me says that these 2 murderer probably have been living for years in France, living on social welfare there, like someone who is later biting the hand that has fed him, cynically put.

Another important point is thgis : This assassination has crossed a red line.

Now innocent MNuslims will get into the flak fire of French and other citizens - because the assasins were French Muslims, too !
Surely these Assassins weren't interested in thinking about long-term conflicts arising.
What I rather suspect that they want to "fanatize" other Musilims by the use of this assassination as well - computing that Muslims will get under pressure -> Fanatics get new human material.

Fanatics might even argue that they want to revenge the Muslims that got under pressure - with neclecting that the pressure was created as an reaction of the assassination in the first place.

However, this is a new quality of an attack against ALL Europeans.
I hope that the jurisdiction will hit them hart and appropriate to their deeds.

No Submission !
 
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Very true Alrik.

This is an attack on innocent and defensless people - so its a cowardly attack. I hope that they catch those responsible and make an example of them.

As you correctly said, they don't represent muslims (becasue they are also killing many hundreds of muslims in pakistan, iraq, syria and elswhere) - they call it in the name of that religion but it is all rubbish, and is just a reflection of their ignorance and their own interpretation of islam.

I have many muslim friends and none of them agree with what has happened or what has been happening elsewhere. As a result, it put many muslims under significant pressure to the degree that muslim women (wearing scarfs or not) and parents are afraid to go to work or outside, or take their children to school becasue of the fear of backlash.

Moreover, and that is by the way a fact that I was told by muslim friends, is that it is well know and recognised in islam that Mohammed (their prophet) is just a messenger (like moses, jacob, ibrahim, issac .. etc.) and a human being (they ate, slept, got married, died and buried) and never taken as gods. So the claim of revenge by these fanatics for blashphemy because of publication of cartoons is nonesense and clear agression on innocents, and defacing of the muslims.
 
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No-one has ever tried to actually kill employees of an Satire Magazine.
There have been death threats and other shit, but actually going in with guns and murdering ? This is new.

One minor issue: There have been isolated actions before. Several conspiracies to kill Lars Vilks, one of the artists behind the (in)famous Mohammad drawings, same with Kurt Westergaard. And 20 years ago there was an unsuccessful assasination attempt at William Nygaard, the publisher of Rushdies "Satanic Verses" in Norway.

pibbur who is certain there have been others as well

PS. Of course, the scale and brutality of the Paris attack is much more serious. DS.
 
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From their perspective its just allahs will. Honestly this is not unexpected. After all the mass riots of ethnic youths in france something like this was bound to happen sooner or later.

I would guess something similar will happen in England and Sweden too in future. I think it was less than year when there were long lasting mass riots (burning cars and schools) of ethnic youths in Stockholm.

If you take immigrants in but dont integrate them properly this is what you get eventually. Unemployed uneducated unintegrated youths who have no future but lots free time is the best breeding ground for radicalism.

Luckily they are targeting just single cartoonists for now. Instead of that they could i.e terror bomb city centers.
 
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If you read some parts of the Qur'an, it seems like it's not simply their perspective: the Qur'an tells them to fight and kill the oppressors of Islam. Of course, in my opinion, the Bible is not much better is this respect.
 
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If you read some parts of the Qur'an, it seems like it's not simply their perspective: the Qur'an tells them to fight and kill the oppressors of Islam. Of course, in my opinion, the Bible is not much better is this respect.

At least it is not the oppressors of the messenger as these fanatics claim, and its 'oppressors', not innocent people.

Whichever way you look at it, their actions (killing innocents) are not justified. More important questions are how did they get the weapons, transport them, use them .. etc.? There is no smoke without fire, and such individuals should normally be visible to the authorities!

Nevertheless I think that what the above quote the quran might be taken out of context since the arabic language is very rich, and I think that the verses in the quran are interlinked which means that this statement might follow something along the lines of "if you been attacked and killed injustly then .. you are allowed to fight the oppressors .. " or something like that. Moreover, and after browsing through some translations of the quran, verses like this are always followed by warning of severe punishment for those (i.e. the muslims) committing crime and aggress towards innocents.
 
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At least it is not the oppressors of the messenger as these fanatics claim, and its 'oppressors', not innocent people.

I guess what is an 'oppressor' is up for a little interpretation. Cartoons mocking Islam, the prophet and their spiritual leaders might be interpreted as some sort of oppression by some seriously devoted believers.

Whichever way you look at it, their actions (killing innocents) are not justified. More important questions are how did they get the weapons, transport them, use them .. etc.? There is no smoke without fire, and such individuals should normally be visible to the authorities!

Wasn't it said somewhere or suspected that they had returned from Syria? At least, they were trained well in the use of automatic weapons.

Nevertheless I think that what the above quote the quran might be taken out of context since the arabic language is very rich, and I think that the verses in the quran are interlinked which means that this statement might follow something along the lines of "if you been attacked and killed injustly then .. you are allowed to fight the oppressors .. " or something like that.

It's a stretch. Especially when I consider what vileness is told of in the Bible—so why not the Qur'an?

Moreover, and after browsing through some translations of the quran, verses like this are always followed by warning of severe punishment for those (i.e. the muslims) committing crime and aggress towards innocents.

True enough. Are unbelievers that reject and mock Islam innocent, though?
 
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The leaders of Islam need to quickly speak out in unity against this violence. I'm looking at you Saudi Arabia, in particular. Otherwise the religion will be further maligned and this could escalate further.
 
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The leaders of Islam need to quickly speak out in unity against this violence. I'm looking at you Saudi Arabia, in particular. Otherwise the religion will be further maligned and this could escalate further.

The problem is that the leaders of Saudi Arabia largely support this kind of behavior. They very openly welcome harsh interpretations of Islam. The sooner they run out of oil and fade back into the sand dunes the better.
 
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Wasn't it said somewhere or suspected that they had returned from Syria? At least, they were trained well in the use of automatic weapons.

Yes. They returned from Syria in July 2014 though no one seems to know what they did there.
One dude fought in Iraq back in 2005 (or so) and was put in jail subsequently.
He was "under surveillance" since then. Well, looks like whoever was assigned to this "surveillance" job must have been off on a coffee&donut (or croissant?) break when these guys acquired automatic weapons and travelled to Syria.

True enough. Are unbelievers that reject and mock Islam innocent, though?
Not by the strict interpretation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an explicitly encourages defending against 'infidels' (and oppressors) with violence. That is why radical followers of the Qur'an, like the Salafi, who live and go by the book, word by word, feel that their terrorist acts are justified. With a bit of shoving, pushing and twisting it is usually easy for them to construe an "attack" that requires "defensive" action. Though to be fair, in other cases, like when a so called coalition of the willing, is dropping bombs on you, well, I guess it's kinda hard to deny an attack has actually taken place so no shoving, pushing and twisting required at times.
Still, I'm sure that the Qur'an means you're supposed to fight the actual aggressor, not bomb "soft targets". So when it comes to the target selection, there is apparently lots of creative freedom at work again.
 
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The problem is that the leaders of Saudi Arabia largely support this kind of behavior. They very openly welcome harsh interpretations of Islam. The sooner they run out of oil and fade back into the sand dunes the better.

This is a big problem, yes. Because with their infinite amounts of money they are able to pump up the volume err pump up a limited interpretation which is not supported by the majority.
But - they have trained so many people to think in their ways ...
 
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True enough. Are unbelievers that reject and mock Islam innocent, though?

I don't think Thaurin, since I have been told that there is a strong belief in islam is that there is no complusion in religion. Moreover, christians and jews were living peacefully in the past with muslims and under islamic ruling.

I guess the issue here is people (muslim) ignorance of their religion, and hence their incorrect and irresponsible interpretation. The more knowledgeable one is, the more tolerant and easy they should be (or one should expect!).
 
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The problem is that the leaders of Saudi Arabia largely support this kind of behavior. They very openly welcome harsh interpretations of Islam. The sooner they run out of oil and fade back into the sand dunes the better.

Are those the same that bend over and sell the oil at half its worth because they are told so, or the ones sucking the blood of their country and people for their own businesses and pleasures. These leaders are worthless, and I don't think they know their way to the toilet, let alone supporting terrorists and since all their bank accounts and transactions are already known.

At the same time, their islamic leaders (that we don't see on our TVs since they don't speak English) have been shouting for years against these terrorist and terroist acts, and to stop this nonesense since it has no relation to islam (but in fact is hurting islam and muslims).
 
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I guess the issue here is people (muslim) ignorance of their religion, and hence their incorrect and irresponsible interpretation. The more knowledgeable one is, the more tolerant and easy they should be (or one should expect!).

I think the issue is that people pick and choose from the texts that they hold sacred and that the violent types pick the violent parts for their purposes. I don't think it is very much a matter of interpretation or bad translation. I find it very hard to rationalize away some of the violence in both Christian and Islamic texts as peaceful and tolerant.

P.S. It seems like our masked, kalashnikov-toting brothers are on the loose in a large forest north of Paris now.
 
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What bothers me, is that while all Muslims are NOT terrorists, it appears that ALL terrorists are Muslims!! This may not be totally accurate, but it's usually the appearance that counts!!
 
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Congratulations, France - you have been doing all you can to raise your own little homegrown intifada

And where are all those massive demonstrations by peace-loving muslims all over the world, standing against such an affront??
 
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Actually, I'm not so sure this compares so well to 9/11.

First, this is actually more of an attack on the culture. 9/11 was more of a "show off" move. Look! Our radical group can actually DO something against the USA! Politicians ran around claiming they were attacking our "cherished freedoms" but that really struck me as bogus.

Second, 9/11 was coming from a bigger player. This attack in France looks more like what happens when some super-extremists get hold of some really dangerous guns.

What bothers me, is that while all Muslims are NOT terrorists, it appears that ALL terrorists are Muslims!! This may not be totally accurate, but it's usually the appearance that counts!!
Northern Ireland? The Ku Klux Klan?
 
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I don't see them as terrorists; at least not in the way it's currently being defined!!
 
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