What Makes a Great RPG? @ Rampant Coyote

Indie gaming blog Tales of the Rampant Coyote has a huge multi-part series titled What Makes a Great RPG? We're coming in at the end, after much discussion of the mechanics, story, roleplaying and world to come in with the final "Answer" article (scroll to the bottom for links to the previous pieces):

We want story. Nobody wants to be bored in a fictional reality, either. We want context and meaning and goals and stuff. But we don't want to follow the story - we want the story to follow us! We want it to bend and reshape itself to our every action. Our every minor move should have the fullest attention of the gods - or the author - or the computer, whoever is running this show.

And the universe should respond as the ultimate improvisational performer. The world should literally - if unknowingly - revolve around us, and our every action should - after the big reveal, climax, and resolution - prove to have been critical and not just dramatically appropriate, but dramatically perfect. At the end of the game, we want to go back and see the whole thing laid out behind us like a masterwork of literature or cinema (or better), and realize that any different action we'd taken would have substantially altered the entire plot. But of course, we want the ending to be as satisfying as if it were the only one, and we'd magically beelined our way to the perfect conclusion.

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Thanks, Scorpia's Gaming Lair.
More information.

The quote state enough, this is what I want

Yeah, it became pretty clear from the surveys that there's a certain experience 90% of RPG players were looking for. Of course, it's a completely impossibility to achieve it. So it came down to trying to break down what makes the best approximation of the ideal.

Thanks for the mention, Scorpia and Dhruin!

Also, a pony.

....And boobs

....lots of them

.....big ones!

I'm still stuck on wanting to experience a true spiritual successor to Ultima VII. Some games have come enjoyably close, such as the Gothic series, Divine Divinity, & Arx Fatalis. But still, somehow, there never has been a truely satisfying spirtual successor to that fantastic little game released in the early 90s.

I'd say (in no particular order) Bioware, Troika, Black Isle and Interplay (Fallout 1) all have gotten pretty close, so I would say not impossible.
Problem is, development really isn't so much interested in working towards this goal, due to lack of funding.

I think the answer, why, might be that moderate to serious RPG players are ahead of the curve, most have been playing games for over ten years.
Comparing that to the average adult audience (which is growing significantly by the way), hasn't hit the wall of boredom at simplified games yet.
Basically due to lack of playtime, they mostly have two to four years of experience and got their start during the big funding push away from complex and more fulfilling game play experience, to more streamlined and simplified game experience, but simplified can only go so far.

JDR13

big ones!

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Nay, I say!
I will not Rest or Rise, until I am surrounded by Breasts, of all size!

I remember playing Baldur's Gate II and thinking, "Wow, this is the closest I've been to feeling the way I felt playing Ultima VII...! This is awesome!" Only took nearly ten years.

But now it's been... what... seven years since BG2? I guess six since the expansion. That's a long time...

And hardcore versus newbie RPGs... hmm... maybe we can call them "entry level" RPGs?

The world should literally - if unknowingly - revolve around us, and our every action should - after the big reveal, climax, and resolution - prove to have been critical and not just dramatically appropriate, but dramatically perfect.

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This is not necessary in my criteria for a great RPG. Immersion is key but I do not mind being immersed in a world I am struggling to be recognized in because events are bigger than me or my insignificant existence.

The end of Planescape Torment comes to mind as not all that happy and self centered yet that game is a masterwork RPG.

At the end of Fallout we did not save the world, we just saved our own life I felt.

I can't think of any other games offhand as I type this that break the typical "Hero" typecast but there are many.

The point wasn't that this was necessary for a great RPG - but that was the "ideal, perfect" RPG. My conclusion was that a great RPG moves us towards that ideal (and then there's tons of discussion on what works and doesn't work to do that). Naturally, technology is a LONG way off.

You are right about being the hero, though. Being the principle protagonist, I guess, might have been a better term.

I enjoyed this article a lot and agree with it. I especially liked the emphasis on heroism. I'm looking forward to more!

The one thing I don't agree with is the premise that the world should revolve around the player. That can work out wonderfully in a carefully crafted world like Gothic, but it's definitely not the rule of thumb. IMO, the sandbox approach has greater potential.

What makes an RPG good for me is the story, how well my character can navigate that story with a give-and-take dynamic, to what depth can I explore the world in which that story takes place, and how well the game makes me feel that my character is alive and believable.

I want the story to be interesting and avoid cliches as much as possible, and I want to be able to really explore that story in a non-railroaded fashion. If I have an idea I want to be able to investigate that path, not have to choose from a few pre-selected options. Now I'm not expecting a full virtual reality world, but it's nice when I have the impression that I have choices in approaching the challenges of the story.

It's very important to me that I feel immersed in the game world through my character, so it's important that he's believable. I don't care for high-level heroics and lots of powerful, earth-shattering abilities as I find those detract from immersion and simply become game mechanics. To not be reminded constantly of game mechanics is good. I should feel that I'm challenged, but not in irrational ways.

So far, I have yet to find the RPG that fits my requirements, but it's nice to dream.

So... a great story or a great, interactive world... which is more important?

(Sort of a jRPG versus western RPG question, I guess....)

Ultima had both!!

RampantCoyote said:

So... a great story or a great, interactive world... which is more important?

(Sort of a jRPG versus western RPG question, I guess....)

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I'll take the interactive world over story.
Story is great to have but if I have to choose I'll take interactivity with the world, as that will provide my own fun and exploration. A good story alone isn't worth playing for as far as I'm concerned as the more concentrated the story is, the more on-rails the game is allowing for very little player choice.

The ultimate sandbox would be a great storyline game as well. It would even still greatly revolve around the player. The essential difference is that it wouldn't be limited to that and would achieve so much more that it would have to be considered something else.

With arguable exceptions, no one's really figured out how to do that with a CRPG yet. IMO, the game needs to start making decisions in correspondence with the player's own, and those should run the gamut between subtle and enormous. CRPG needs to become more like Gary Gygax’ original idea – it needs to be more of a collaborative effort.

I agree for the most part. But what I personally do not want to see is a gameworld that reacts to the player as though he or she is a great saviour or everybody and everything responds like the PC is the centre of the universe.
I don't want to be in a world like that - I like reactions to my actions but I also don't want the game to respond as though my every act is worthy of noting or responding to.

And I agree for the most part with that as well. If CRPG worked how I want, every game would be a little different that way, and it would come down to individual taste as to which is best.

Here’s an example of what I mean. When I played Gothic, I usually earned money in the beginning by working as a blacksmith in the Old Camp. What if the game noticed that and adjusted a bit, altering my options there? What if I burglarized huts instead or beat up diggers when the guards weren’t looking? What if hunted for a living and only killed creatures that attacked me first? How might the game have responded?

Gothic was awesome, but it would have been even better if it had reacted to me and what I was doing. Like dancing with someone, singing a duet or doing anything else people enjoy together, adjustments should be appropriate, pleasing and maybe a little intriguing. What's special is that you're not alone.

Storyline CRPGs have all the bases covered, but they’re just too limited while sandbox CRPGs are much less limited but ignore some of the bases too much. A bigger more complex game capable of making decisions and acting on them would be able to react to the player and blend the best of both. The sky would be the limit after that.

Yeah, I agree.
I find that the sandbox games like Grand Theft Auto and it's clones are doing things along the right path and I'd like to see proper RPGs do more of the same. The gameworld in GTA and others like it are far more responsive to the players actions. The trick for an RPG is to carry things through into more meaningful dialogue and choice/consequence directions.

Since GTA was mentioned, I felt I should mention what has been my greatest RPG experience in 21 years of PC gaming.

Half Life.

I was attacked in another thread some months ago for having the nerve to suggest that Half Life is an RPG. Something about I can't just go around making up genres to fit my tastes.

Regardless, that game provided me with a very distinct role to play in a fully realized world that lived and breathed. The sheer sense of urgency in that game from start to finish provided the most immersion I have felt in a game.

In contrast, a game that I enjoyed immensely for years had none of the criteria for an immersive role playing experience and yet is considered a classic RPG.

Diablo 2.