G20 meeting idiocy

[rant]

I am really pissed at how stupid the world leaders are.

After their meeting the grand solution of the economy inbalance is that countries such as sweden, china and germany should consume more and on top of that they should consume things in the form of importing which means it'll be material things mostly, because they have an surplus in exports.

How freaking stupid can they get? at the same time there are news that Beijing now even have trouble to get enough water because of the increase in consumption, and the only way we can save the environment is to decrease this consumption.

So first the environment meeting fail, and now the idiots at G20 is putting in a death blow towards the environment.

Truly there is no hope for humankind.

[End rant]

What G20 tries to do is to maintain a failed , ill inspired system .
Financial innovation reached it's pick and from now on the only way is down.

Well, Germany has in fact a far too weak inland consimung economy. IT is crippled for a *lot* of ears now … And it doesn't get better, because "the economy" gives the people the impression of hard, uneasy times, whih makes the people holding their money together.

Meanwhile the bigger companies make ore and more profits, and the smaller ones more and more die out.

Some of these bigger companies - like the Aldi chain, for example - do explicitel market with their low prices.

As a sensitive person, I get the impression as if the society is meant to be "held down" and not ask for higher wages, because higher wages means less profits for the managers and the suits in general.

It's like … trying to keep poor people down to make tranasform them just into "consuming cattle". They are not meant to do anything else but to consume.

In my eyes, Germany's greatest weakness just lies in its total rely on exports. If these exports might break down one day, Geman has nothing, and it will break down, too, because the inland economy just isn't developed good enough.

And exporting too much also means in my eyes draining other countries off their money - it's exports, at least.

Just take a look at where the money lows. This gives you quite a good view on how the economy goes on right now.

This is my philosophy on that.

I can only repeat: resource-based economy.

It really is amazing to me how stupid our world leaders are with their focus on consumption as the end all be all. A lot of people blame Keynesian economic philosphy, but in reality there has never been an implemenation of Keynesian policy that was even reasonably close to what Kenyes advocated.

It kind of reminds me of the answer Karl Marx once gave after attending a Marxist rally. They asked him what he thought and he replied "Everyone there was a Marxist but me!"

Well, it's less about stupidity than courage.

People are scrambling to cover their asses, and to avoid taking responsibility.

The reason we have a financial crisis is a combination of greed and ignorance. Rather simple, really.

People (everyone) wanted money without producing anything, and without doing anything - so we're talking fantasy money in a system where money is supposed to represent real and tangible value.

It was just a matter of time.

Leaders want to avoid taking a loss, and they want to avoid the big boys getting hurt. That's how you stay in power - and power is what you want, when you're a leader. At least, that's how it works 99 times out of 100.

Avoiding hurting the big boys or even the medium ones is a good sing IMO because it accelerates their way down

Tragos said:

Avoiding hurting the big boys or even the medium ones is a good sing IMO because it accelerates their way down

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The trouble is that the big boys are running the show, and they will never go down because of it.

The rest will be the ones suffering.

I'm not particularly sympathetic - because the general populace have been contributing to this all along. It's just that they haven't been in a position to be quite as harmful to the system, being only "small potatoes".

DArtagnan said:

The trouble is that the big boys are running the show, and they will never go down because of it.

The rest will be the ones suffering.

I'm not particularly sympathetic - because the general populace have been contributing to this all along. It's just that they haven't been in a position to be quite as harmful to the system, being only "small potatoes".

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Yes they are running this show down , the general populace (us) are shitheads , we don't deserve anything better and thank Zoroaster we do not have a word in all this , communism depleted itself and now it is time for capitalism .
Remember Romania when Causescu (sp?) went down after 40 years in a couple of weeks? this is how our role will be played .

IMO of course.

Tragos said:

Yes they are running this show down , the general populace (us) are shitheads , we don't deserve anything better and thank Zoroaster we do not have a word in all this , communism depleted itself and now it is time for capitalism .
Remember Romania when Causescu (sp?) went down after 40 years in a couple of weeks? this is how our role will be played .

IMO of course.

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Well, sometimes lessons need to be hard before we learn.

Generally, though, humanity can survive a lot of things - but it's never without sacrifice.

As long as money counts for something, the rich will suffer less. I don't see money being discounted anytime soon - so I'm pretty sure I'll be one of the people suffering from this for a while.

But the system is not the problem. Human nature = ignorance = the problem.

Capitalism could work without our ignorance, but as it is - it's a pretty bad system that facilitates greed on a terrifying level.

DArtagnan said:

Well, sometimes lessons need to be hard before we learn.

Generally, though, humanity can survive a lot of things - but it's never without sacrifice.

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I believe that people are by nature conservative because like all mammals surviving the day means that the day was good and the next day should be like the previous one. My general feeling is that people are not totally ignorant , they just close their eyes to sights that scare them and of course our mental capacity is too limited to create something better.

DArtagnan said:

As long as money counts for something, the rich will suffer less. I don't see money being discounted anytime soon - so I'm pretty sure I'll be one of the people suffering from this for a while.

But the system is not the problem. Human nature = ignorance = the problem.

Capitalism could work without our ignorance, but as it is - it's a pretty bad system that facilitates greed on a terrifying level.

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Capitalism IMO is about few smart guys taking risks and better their life at the expense of the rest , then satisfying the rest with some leftovers ; the hole in this system is that fewer and fewer guys will be able to get their fingers into honey while minimising their risks , in the long run there can be only one.

G20 is like this liquid inside condoms for premature ejaculators , it's purpose is to prolong the inevitable fail.

edit: i suck on quoting

Tragos said:

Capitalism IMO is about few smart guys taking risks and better their life at the expense of the rest , then satisfying the rest with some leftovers ; the hole in this system is that fewer and fewer guys will be able to get their fingers into honey while minimising their risks , in the long run there can be only one.

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I'd have to disagree with that completely. So long as there are adequate government protections to prevent unethical/illegal business practices that create defacto monopolies, capitalism allows anyone to do what they want and to flourish or fail based on thier ability. Now to be fair, I do not believe we have adequate government regulation in terms of competition in the US or anywhere else, but I don't see any other system that is going to do a better job of putting labor and capital to work.

blatantninja said:

I'd have to disagree with that completely. So long as there are adequate government protections to prevent unethical/illegal business practices that create defacto monopolies, capitalism allows anyone to do what they want and to flourish or fail based on thier ability. Now to be fair, I do not believe we have adequate government regulation in terms of competition in the US or anywhere else, but I don't see any other system that is going to do a better job of putting labor and capital to work.

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We do not disagree , in paper all our existing political theories assume that people will do this or that and at the end of the day they will all behave themselves (or have the state forcing them to) ; what 12.000 years of experience have taught us is that humans will do not hesitate to use the worst of themselves in order to achieve their goals (including controlling the state).
So it isn't the fault of theory but of practice , now assuming that in order to survive capitalism must make everyone play nice what you think is the most possible to happen , people changing their nature or shifting political systems?

People certainly won't change their nature and political systems will shift, but I basically see capitalism as the best of a bunch of bad options, by far. The last thing I want is a system, like socialism, where the state controlls the means of production.

Tragos said:

I believe that people are by nature conservative because like all mammals surviving the day means that the day was good and the next day should be like the previous one. My general feeling is that people are not totally ignorant , they just close their eyes to sights that scare them and of course our mental capacity is too limited to create something better.

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Well, that's kinda what I mean by ignorance. You could call it willfull ignorance combined with our limitations as human beings.

I don't think we can do much about ignorance - as it'll always be there in some form, but I'd really like for us to stop judging and hurting each other - believing the ones we harm deserve it. I'd like for us to share equally everything available - without bothering to determine why each individual might "deserve" a greater share.

Capitalism IMO is about few smart guys taking risks and better their life at the expense of the rest , then satisfying the rest with some leftovers ; the hole in this system is that fewer and fewer guys will be able to get their fingers into honey while minimising their risks , in the long run there can be only one

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Well, ultimately, one person will never sustain such a powerbase - because all power is an illusion. People will never accept a single person on top of everything - so they'll just take power away and change the rules, eventually. Of course, people are still stupid and weak - so it can take a while, but this is what will happen if a single person or "company" ends up running the show.

But as long as there are "enough" people to create the illusion of real power - they will thrive in a capitalistic system. The rest will perceive that they have to submit, not counting the few individuals who don't feel like part of the system - but they'll be submitting one way or the other regardless.

blatantninja said:

People certainly won't change their nature and political systems will shift, but I basically see capitalism as the best of a bunch of bad options, by far. The last thing I want is a system, like socialism, where the state controlls the means of production.

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You can always switch from capitalism to theocracy , feudalism , resource based society , loot based society or something totally new , socialism isn't the only alternative .
My sense is that with the current level of our "modern" societies new systems will be as crap as the old ones.

Are you sure you don't have ussr in mind when talking about socialism? this was only Lenin's attempt to make Marx a country and this attempt was ruined by Josip Shithead Stalin

It's a mistake to look at the past for some kind of defining truth regarding what has been tried.

We've tried a few things across the globe, but it has always been corrupted by our nature and our inabilities.

We continue expanding our knowledge and technology, and that's going to be the key if we're ever to evolve beyond our current direction of destroying ourselves and the world we live in.

People certainly won't change their nature and political systems will shift, but I basically see capitalism as the best of a bunch of bad options, by far. The last thing I want is a system, like socialism, where the state controlls the means of production.

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I think most americans have a very aged look of socialism the liberal socialsim is not in this way. IMHO it is also far ahead of capitalism. If you look at the world top-list of best countries to live……. most of them are socialist and most of them happen to be nordic too. Even with our "right" current rule we're still a fairly socialist country in sweden.

Capitalism builds egoism…. almost none in sweden is complaining that he has to pay higher tax to help someone else get better health care, and most people are satisfied with paying higher taxes so even poor peoples children can go to university. We are also willing to make some personal sacrifices for the environment.

But in extreme capitalist countries there is a kind of "screw the environment and everyone else" as long as things are good for me and I earn enough money. Sadly china choose this path….. communism caused them to starve… but the capitalism might acctually be a lot worse considering how fast china is being destroyed. The US view on the environment is a disaster, you have extremly high consumption per capita. I definetely think this is a solid proof of liberal socialism over capitalism.

That said even the more socialist countries is far too much based around the consumption model and sweden is no exception. But we have the highest CO2 tax in the world, and one of the most ambitious goals in decrease of total CO2 emittance of all countries in the world, and of that I am proud. I am also proud the poor 80 year old lady without a health insurrance who fell and got hurt could get treatment for my higher tax money…..

Tragos said:

You can always switch from capitalism to theocracy , feudalism , resource based society , loot based society or something totally new , socialism isn't the only alternative .
My sense is that with the current level of our "modern" societies new systems will be as crap as the old ones.

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yeah, and all of those are worse too!

Are you sure you don't have ussr in mind when talking about socialism? this was only Lenin's attempt to make Marx a country and this attempt was ruined by Josip Shithead Stalin

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What Lenin wanted wasn't really any better, at least in practice, while not pure Marxism, it still was based on the fundamental economic flaws of Marxism.

GothicGothicness said:

I think most americans have a very aged look of socialism the liberal socialsim is not in this way. IMHO it is also far ahead of capitalism. If you look at the world top-list of best countries to live……. most of them are socialist and most of them happen to be nordic too. Even with our "right" current rule we're still a fairly socialist country in sweden.

Capitalism builds egoism…. almost none in sweden is complaining that he has to pay higher tax to help someone else get better health care, and most people are satisfied with paying higher taxes so even poor peoples children can go to university. We are also willing to make some personal sacrifices for the environment.

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I'm not sure I'd call that eogism, probably selfishness if we want to use a harsh term, or self-preservation if we don't. American's definitely have a 'look out for number one first and foremost' attitude, myself included, at least when it concerns the government.

But in extreme capitalist countries there is a kind of "screw the environment and everyone else" as long as things are good for me and I earn enough money. Sadly china choose this path….. communism caused them to starve… but the capitalism might acctually be a lot worse considering how fast china is being destroyed. The US view on the environment is a disaster, you have extremly high consumption per capita. I definetely think this is a solid proof of liberal socialism over capitalism.

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Socialist/communistic economies are far worse on the environment than capitalistic. I'm not talking about the mixed systems of western Europe, I'm talking about the old Eastern Eurrope and China. While we do have an extremely high consumption per capita, the damage that we have done, and are doing, to the environment doesn't even begin to compare with with the Soviets or the Chinese have done. The problem comes down fundamentally to property rights. When the government (or 'the people') own the land, no one gives a shit if they screw it up, because it's not their problem. If private individuals own the land, they have a vested self-interest in taking care of it and making sure that neighbors (be they people or corporations) don't do anything to negatively impact the value of their land.

The consumption problem isn't really a problem of economic system (outside of our insane policy of trying to pump consumer demand as a means of economic growth), it's an issue of social norms. Over here, we have the 'American Dream' (IE a house, 2 cars, 2.5 kids and all the cool possessions that go with those). Most of Europe seems to value quality of life over material possession. That difference in attitude begets the liberal socialism, not the other way around.

Consumption, particulary in terms of energy, is also a a fundamental issue of how spread out our country is. Greater population density is a key to reducing energy demands because it leads to less commuting and less home use energy (due to smaller living spaces). I don't think our lack of population density has anything to do with our economic system, it's about our culture (which is in many ways changing).

I am also proud the poor 80 year old lady without a health insurrance who fell and got hurt could get treatment for my higher tax money…..

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And she'd be fully covered under medicare in the US, so how is that any different?

DArtagnan said:

I don't think we can do much about ignorance - as it'll always be there in some form, but I'd really like for us to stop judging and hurting each other - believing the ones we harm deserve it. I'd like for us to share equally everything available - without bothering to determine why each individual might "deserve" a greater share.

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This sounds perfect if we assume that technocrats / engineers will not enslave us like feudal lords, crusader kings , ,militarists and bankers , again it is about assuming and IMHO practice will only rape theory .
I guess you remember Jourastic Park when no sex animals managed to breed because "nature always find a way" in our case i think that human natural love to corruption and exploitation will.

DArtagnan said:

Well, ultimately, one person will never sustain such a powerbase - because all power is an illusion. People will never accept a single person on top of everything - so they'll just take power away and change the rules, eventually. Of course, people are still stupid and weak - so it can take a while, but this is what will happen if a single person or "company" ends up running the show.
But as long as there are "enough" people to create the illusion of real power - they will thrive in a capitalistic system. The rest will perceive that they have to submit, not counting the few individuals who don't feel like part of the system - but they'll be submitting one way or the other regardless.

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True , this is the struggle for power not for equality or anything else , us vs them , it will take a very long time for "them" to stop have a meaning.
What our systems are managing to do is not exactly to fool us (illusion) , i think we are all aware of how things work and how much they suck , our systems are very welcoming for those who wanna be part of the machine and the machine becomes big part of our egos from a very young age.
Just think of it , we go to school and learn how to obey , we acquire skills to compete against fellow workers and make the plutocrat happy ; what motivates us? the possibility of becoming more important screw of the engine IMO.

Being an outsider doesn't really help until you take the right colour pill and spit your ego out , because competition , consumerism , need to be heard , need to be accepted , need to belong somewhere , loved , recognised , remembered are imprinted inside us .
Some will say that those needs make us humans , i disagree, our ability to see right and wrong does all the others are scars of our sociopolitical disease.

Regarding the post that followed , humans will branch because evolution is not a ladder , possibly the new species will destroy us and this will be the right thing to do since our role will be played.