Witcher Abby, evil? Say, what? :) Spoilers!

Cm · January 1, 2008

I thought that was our job in the world??

I just had to say that..Sorry. lol

Acleacius · January 2, 2008

Prime Junta said:
That doesn't matter. If she did talk to her,....

It does matter since based on your position this means any time she sells Poison, it's her fault for how it's used.

explain the Odo voodoo doll rather nicely

Lol, sure Abby was killing one so she could marry Odo then kill him too, weeee!

I'm still curious why you're so intent on beating this horse,

1. Not true, since it doesn't matter in theory if she used Odo to kill his brother as this accomplished, exactly Opposite of what she wanted according to Odo.
Odo clearly a waste of life doesn't do anything productive, shows up even at the lynching drunk and saying she was after his brothers money, as if he had a clue about anything, Clearly jealous, selfish, deluded and once again you base you position on the people whom are penetrating the evil. There is no evidence that Odo's brother ever caused Abby harm, but in fact seems quite possible they intrested enough in each other Odo believe his brother would marry Abby, which is certainly a reason to drive a drunk, lying, selfish and jealous piece of crap like Odo to premeditatedly kill his brother, that fool didn't need any spells cast on him.

2. Not true since you have no idea or nothing to base it on she is somehow required to question every person whom buys Poison. Did you let Abby know your rules and regulations before Ilsa?

Abby was clearly being successful selling ALL kinds of potions Healing and Poison, according to your theory anyone that sells a weapon which kills someone it's the retailers fault to know the intent of use and psychology of the weapon buyer, eheh.

3. Not true, there is no evidence she gave up Alvin, I just played it again and Alvin does Not say Abby gave me to the Reverend only, Reverend said there would be someone waiting to take me to Vizima. Hell this could have been the whole catalyst for the lynch mob, the Reverend could have threatened to kill her and Alvin, if she didn't give him Alvin.

4. Right if you were the Beast and your loving human girl master had acts of evil forced on her and you, including seeing you skinned alive at the very least, would you go to see her in your and her torment as she suffered as well? Abby was helpless as a child seeing her dog skinned alive and now the dog conscious of who and why he exist (per Alvin's ability to allow spirits to speak through him tells us) so of course if the Beast was born due to the evil put on him and Abby he would wish to see her.

5. Ok you lost me on this one, you mean that she offered herself to Harren if he would sell weapons to Soc tel? First your contradicting yourself iirc, once saying she didn't nothing to help, yet here she is either Tricking or giving herself to Harren to force him to help people instead of selling them to their deaths.

6. Ok, so she offers herself to Geralt ( who is NOT forced) he can refuse and still save her, no promises were made by either and then when Geralt is better than 80% chance married to either Triss or Shani, Abby senses this as women can.

Then takes the noble, non judgmental, non violent, non revenge, non hate, non evil approach saying, Look it was what it was and it's in the past. What a Witch!

Now from our point of view in RL (or at least mine) it was one of Geralt's most heartfelt lines, when he mentions the cave, but was I mad at Abby (the evil, murdering, sexual trickster)? No. Why? Becasue the devs designed the game with no choice for us to get to know her, either by trapping (just a figure of speech girls please don't throw pointy objects!

) us in a marriage or didn' even offer the remotest possibility of us to have a chance with her, so once again I know lets all blame the Female Abby!

7. Yes, it's clear she's a naughty girl, whom needs a good spanking!

skavenhorde said:
Abby wasn't a succubus from hell or wiping blood

Blood, dude you SO missed out, that was Strawberries and just the start, I get all tingly when I think about all the other fruits she crushed on her body! Oh man then the Potions! Hang on need to get a nice cold shower........................................................................................................... Damn I better stop talking about this. :faint:

Acleacius · January 2, 2008

Dusk said:
Odo may be simply taking out of his guilt....

Exactly, it's called projection.

These ones are confirmed by Abigail herself.

Not in my game, just finished and have kept Saves, if I need to check.

Is it true? To me, they seem to have appeared everywhere in the village.

This is my take too, they seemed to have lost control, attacking anyone and everyone all over the village. The only reason that didn't attack children at this point in the game was due to the fact, devs can't have kids get killed if they want to sell their game to people under 17 or 18, so they put them inside.

it's Adda who managed to scratch Geralt although she couldn't even touch him in the form of the striga.

This is confusing to me, Adda scratched him but couldn't touch him as a Striga in the movie? Odd I don't remember a scratch. It's hard for me to see Abby as different or exploiting Geralt, they most all seem mutual and it's no different than any other girl interested in Geralt, afaik only the Blue eyed girl your forced to sleep with to complete a quest, but I really can't remember for sure, since like a pig I sleep with them all.

Unless your point is all women use sex to weaken men's will, hehe.

Cm said:
I thought that was our job in the world??

skavenhorde · January 2, 2008

Cm said:
I thought that was our job in the world?? I just had to say that..Sorry. lol

I knew you were going to say that

As for the rest you guys know how I feel. The hellhounds were everywhere, not just there because Abby was so evil.

Ace you gotta admit though that dropping Alivin off at the reverend's wasn't very nice. There is a whole bunch of different things she could have done.

Other than that and maybe selling the poison, I don't see her as evil. She is definatly living in the wrong town. Small minded people are so annoying you know when they try to lynch someone for being different. Well in the game they didn't exactly say lynch but same result, she would be dead.

@Ace mmmmm strawberries :biggrin:

, didn't think of it like that. Still don't know why she is flying though lol.

Dusk · January 2, 2008

Cm said:
I thought that was our job in the world?? I just had to say that..Sorry. lol

You mean, in this world? Do you happen to be infertile and immune to disease?

Acleacius said:
This is confusing to me, Adda scratched him but couldn't touch him as a Striga in the movie? Odd I don't remember a scratch.

I meant Adda in the human (woman) shape. Just check out the last part of the movie.

Acleacius · January 2, 2008

skavenhorde said:
Ace you gotta admit though that dropping Alivin off at the reverend's wasn't very nice.

That's the point though, we don't have any idea what or how it happened. She could have given Alvin to the Reverend because, he tricked her about Alvin or her safety. The problem is believing the Guilty about Abby without any evidence of anything, it's all just speculation, at least what I have seen so far.

The first thing that is Absolutely clear, the Reverend got Alvin with or without Abby knowing, with the sole intent to HARM Alvin, by selling/trading him to be a child sacrifice. The idea that Abby had any ill intent is purely speculation, completely contrary to everything Abby does and says in the game, with Geralt even getting her wrong, in a couple of points.

Secondly each person that accuses her has something to gain by doing so, yet each instance where Abby is accused of doing something evil, there isn't any evidence she would benefit. Example how would Abby benefit by hexing (if she can even do it) Odo to kill his brother, how does this get her anything?

It's far more likely Odo killed his brother out of resentment over his relationship with Abby, since only Odo would gain by his brothers death and once Odo killed him she tried to torment him with the doll, since even if you accept worst case of Abby trying to steal Odo's brother's gold, why the hell would Abby want him dead, she is better off with him alive.

So what you have is some people who have a lot to lose if their power is taken away to hide their evil deeds, blaming someone who has nothing to gain by doing the evil acts she is accused of.doing there is only accusation without substantive motive or fact.

Hell what if the Reverend kidnapped Alvin from her, once he found out she was gone or away, he clearly would do such a thing, since he is willing to steal children for sacrifice, right? Who you going blame the guilty or the scapegoat?

There is no evidence of Abby killing or intending to kill anyone and as a matter of fact, actually women usually support each other in these abusive situations. You can even hear her Regret that Ilsa was dead, yet the Reverend says Abby killed Ilsa even though he should have no idea how she died and he even mentions Poison.

Hehe, you get that? How could the Reverend possible know Ilsa was poisoned? Know any people whom, have no trouble blaming, killing or raping innocent women? Or possibly some people whom don't want anyone to find out they raped Ilsa?

Everyone of the men whom are so willing to blame Abby are doing so because she was the Only one who stood up to them and was a threat to their male dominated village of torture, rape, murder and ritual sacrifice of children. Just because Abby couldn't save Ilsa doesn't automatically make her guilty of killing her or responsible.

Still don't know why she is flying though lol.

Lol, say what? More importantly can I get some of whatever you smoking?

Dusk said:
I meant Adda in the human (woman) shape. Just check out the last part of the movie.

Ahh, ok, thanks. I only saw it once but remember something about it.

Oh, btw looks like the theory about the Hellhound killing everyone even children is true. I forgot about the scene at the start of Outskirts where it tried to kill Alvin. I had a Save just after entering the Inn for the first time, so I didn't have to play Kaer Morden, again.

Prime Junta · January 2, 2008

The prosecution rests.

Dez · January 2, 2008

A good hearted woman wouldn't ever assist a depressed person to commit a suicide, Its like knowingly selling a gun to a person who is going to shoot himself in the head tommorrow, but money is money... So maybe abby is a bit evil.

Alvin case is a bit more complex. I got the impression that our good minister didn't excactly say please when he decided to look after alvin. Abby may not be all good, but she wouldn't harm a child.

Abby is a witch, but she can't make anyone to commit a murder. Heck why is she hiding in that cave if her powers are so great as villagers claim? She said thought that she was preparing some kind of spell, but I don't think it would have helped her much... Her magic was more show than real. Sure she knew poisons and healing, but controlling someone's mind demands a bit more..Even real mages can't do something like that.

Besides I can't let bunch of ignorant zealots lynch a helpless woman without a proper trial or real evidence of her actions.

skavenhorde · January 2, 2008

Acleacius said:
T
Lol, say what? More importantly can I get some of whatever you smoking?

Oh never mind LOL, It's the weird position she is in. She's sorta standing or well kneeling on her tippie toes. Made me think she was floating for some reason or I was just having flashbacks

Acleacius · January 3, 2008

Prime Junta said:
The prosecution rests.

Don't rest till you finish your Sakebomb! :party:

Too bad we don't have a Sakebomb emote.

Dez said:
A good hearted woman wouldn't ever assist a depressed person to commit a suicide......So maybe abby is a bit evil.

That could be a way to look at extreme cases on both sides, yet still without anything in the way of knowing.
Her character seemed very cooperative with Geralt trying to help in every circumstance without regard for money (unless it was something that took objects like a potions or ingredients), which only Geralt's closest friends have done, iirc. She acted no different than any alchemist/merchant, never did I get questioned as Geralt how I intended to use ingredients capable of killing by any of any kind and 99.9% of them were less giving and helpful than Abby. Ahmm that includes before the cave.

. Heck why is she hiding in that cave if her powers are so great as villagers claim?

Exactly, afaik she was making a large stink or nauseous bomb, Geralt even said something like "there's lots of stink and crap in your brew".

Btw way it was very funny when she attempted to teach Geralt (for free I might add) potion using Seven ingredients, since he was limited to Five. Saying something like "umm that's to complicated" then she laughed and said "Ha! I knew it! :biggrin:

bkrueger said:
May be she assumed that Alvin would be given to a foster family?

True, that could have been his whole scam on getting children.

skavenhorde said:
Oh never mind LOL

Kinky, naughty girls like their toes dipped in strawberries and weird positions!

fatBastard() · January 3, 2008

Okay look people, this attempt to make Abi a saint is going to far.

bkrueger said:
And we don't even have evidence, that Abby knew, what the reverend would do to the child. May be she assumed that Alvin would be given to a foster family?

Are you telling me that Abigail didn't know that the Reverend was the leader of the group of people trying to get rid out to get her? One might explain and excuse her giving Alvin away to almost anyone else, but to give the boy to her arch enemy? Come on, there is no excuse for that.

@ Acleacius: I find it a bit disturbing how quick you are to pass judgment on Odo and the others considering how adamant you've been that there is no proof that Abigail is anything but a saint.

What proof is there that Mikuel raped Ilsa? None, only the accusation uttered by Abigail. What proof is there that Odo WASN'T hexed by Abigail to kill his brother? None.

You seem awfully quick to condemn a "drunk, lying, selfish and jealous piece of crap like Odo" based on nothing but hearsay ... could it be because he is a man?

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is not just a saying you know. Just because you're a cute little redhead with batting eyelashes and a huge cleavage doesn't mean that you can't be a plotting, conniving, evil little witch as well. Abigail recognized Geralt as a Witcher the moment he stepped through the door and she quickly realized that she could ask for no better ally than a Witcher so she started playing him like a fiddle and look what happened. I'm pretty certain that most people here on the Watch chose to side with her against the mob for one reason or another.

Now, the fact that CD Project chose to create this story element without any black and white solutions and without any clear evidence to support one faction over the other so that your job isn't to gather clues to WIN a trial but to force you to make a DECISION just goes to show what a great job they did IMO.

Prime Junta · January 3, 2008

fatBastard() said:
What proof is there that Mikuel raped Ilsa? None, only the accusation uttered by Abigail.

Come to think of it, Mykul's reaction when he heard of Ilsa's death wasn't what I'd have expected from a heartless rapist.

Cm · January 3, 2008

fatBastard() said:
Now, the fact that CD Project chose to create this story element without any black and white solutions and without any clear evidence to support one faction over the other so that your job isn't to gather clues to WIN a trial but to force you to make a DECISION just goes to show what a great job they did IMO.

I think that says it all. The purpose and the method used have drawn us all into the game hook, line and sinker, and the real story of the game has not even started yet. The mood is set, the stage lights struck, and the show is now about to begin in earnest.

Acleacius · January 4, 2008

fatBastard() said:
Okay look people, this attempt to make Abi a saint is going to far.

Hehe, yes because when your Not Evil, your a Saint.

Are you telling me that Abigail didn't know that the Reverend was the leader of the group of people trying to get rid out to get her?

Are you saying she did?

I find it a bit disturbing how quick you are to pass judgment on Odo

Lol, come on, he confesses to murdering his own brother, how is that passing unfair judgment?

This isn't really a spoiler only a joke which can and should be skipped if your offended by me making fun of a certain hick, here in the US.

Am I a'spose to believe some dimwitted, drunk, dumbass, illiterate fool could run a country.....errr (sorry

) understand voodoo, magic and hexes enough to know someone forced him to kill his brother, yet not enough to stop it? HE is the only one who could benefit by the death and Not mention he sought out assassin/murder lessons, is that part of the hex too, edumacation? :biggrin:

What proof is there that Mikuel raped Ilsa?

Maybe you didn't notice or you possibly have a different definition of proof? While the Spirit spoke through Alvin, he said "plow her, show her your a man". The rape gang that Mikul was with when she was gang raped was the same one who tried to rape Shani. Saying "let's do what we did to Mikul's girl Ilsa". Then Mikul's responses are pretty clear, he automatically knew who the girl was without Geralt doing anything but saying "a young girl's body in the crypt". Admittedly, I am not sure about Mikul's apology at the gate to chap 2, it could have been for raping her or for getting Geralt arrested, though Geralt seemed to think it was a confession, saying apologize to Ilsa.

better ally than a Witcher so she started playing him like a fiddle and look what happened.

Oh I see now every things Abby's fault, hehe. How dare she (if we take your position) try to get help killing a Beast on a rampage killing children, women and men. Remember it was the Reverend pushing the investigation not Abby, she was only helping Geralt.

without any clear evidence to support one faction over the other so that your job isn't to gather clues

Well we have different definitions of evidence and Witchers, since my understanding is while Witchers aren't perfect it's their job to protect humans and *root out the guilty* according to what Geralt even says in the game, iirc.

Prime Junta said:
Come to think of it, Mykul's reaction......

True, he was maybe just someone caught up in a crowd of rape gang'ers (if he wasn't a card carrying member), possibly drunk or too stupid to know better. He is played as very uneducated. Yet the point isn't is Mikul evil, though it could certainly be worth talking about, but is Abby evil.

Acleacius · January 4, 2008

My guess or opinion about the way Abby's magic works beyond her Potions and Healing, is a possible power to divine the past to some degree, since I have never her seen her indicate she could see the future. Yet most people positioning themselves on the Abby is evil side, seem to think she could divine the future by several of the statements. While I am not claiming there is hard evidence it's just my feel, which I think explains a lot about her actions always seem to be reactionary and responding instead of being an instigator.

fatBastard() · January 4, 2008

Yes, I think I can see now how you could come to the conclusion that Abigail is a Saint when it would appear that you're deliberately misunderstanding what is being said.

Acleacius said:
Are you saying she did?

How could she NOT know WHO is the most outspoken person about her "vile nature"? She is NOT stupid you know.

Acleacius said:
Lol, come on, he confesses to murdering his own brother, how is that passing unfair judgment?

Yes well, it is Abigail who delivers the line "lesser evil", yet you never once called her anything like "a drunk, lying, selfish and jealous piece of crap". Somehow, HER sins are understandable, reasonable and forgivable, the others ... well, they're just scum of the earth deserving eternity in the company of brimstone and hellfire.

Acleacius said:
... benefit by the death ... assassin/murder lessons ...

While we're at the unlikely explanations: Could it be that Odo is drinking out of sorrow for the loss of his brother and that he sought lessons in an attempt to impress his brother by his knowledge when his physique wouldn't allow him to be a warrior? Likely? No. Possible? Just as possible as Abigail not knowing what the poison was for or that giving Alvin over to the Reverend was not in the boys best interests, etc.

The point of the matter is that nobody is refuting the PROBABLE guilt of the villagers. We're all pretty certain that these louts are a worse choice than Abigail is but as some of us have tried to point out: CD Project have made the characters as real as they could and that means that there are no Devils or Saints, just like in the real world. We all have a dark side (though some, like Cm, are more attuned to this dark side than others

Anyway, if you choose to put things into black and white boxes where the logic of if A > B then B = 0 must apply then nothing we can say will change your mind ... however, even though the villagers, IMO, ARE the greater evil of the two sides it sure as heck doesn't mean that Abigail is a Goody Two-Shoes.

Acleacius · January 4, 2008

fatBastard() said:
come to the conclusion that Abigail is a Saint when it would appear that you're deliberately misunderstanding what is being said.

Hehe, ok if you say so, that's honestly confusing since I am listing specific examples in the game, unless I mention otherwise. Nor am I claiming I have 100% accurate memory of everything they said, but I think for the most part it's pretty dang close.

How could she NOT know WHO is the most outspoken person

I don't recall this, seems a different subject, so now Abby is saying something about *lesser evil* and this has something to do with me calling the DAR's, DARs? Even though I have no idea what your talking about and only going to say this based on what I see you writing.
They chose to attack, as Geralt I offered them a chance to start over and repent. I only defended myself and Abby who clearly has no verifiable evidence against her, unlike the men. Who btw, want her dead only to sate their personal guilt and are hiding behind the idea of killing Abby, will kill the Beast so Let all go kill us a Witch, so they try to murder her. Based on your words without having an idea what this is in reference to, sounds like your defending this position of the DARs.

While we're at the unlikely explanations:

Yes I agree your really not offering any explanations at least above just allegations!

The Salamandra say Odo came to them to learn how to kill his brother and they laughed at him, saying a drunk and weak fool wouldn't have a chance. Possibly I remember them even saying only if you did it while he slept.
Once again your assuming Abby questioned everyone about any item and further more it was her responsibility, if not it's her fault and she's evil. Yet you have no foundation to base this on since you haven't provided a single example in the game where this is a factor, any Vendor asking questions about how their gear would be used by Geralt. Your not trying to be biased for the men are you? :biggrin:

there are no Devils or Saints, just like in the real world.

Possibly, yet again it comes down to personal perceptions or conceptual continuity and I am not referring to this in a religious sense, as words are not owned by those whom would claim them.

logic of if A > B then B = 0 must apply then nothing we can say will change your mind

Afaik, I am the one using logic and examples, while not relying on a PR phrase, then trying to make a situation fit based on idealism or propaganda. I have used RL and GL examples, yet I have been open to many suggestions and trying to run them through my experience. Even stating which Dialog setting I was using and acknowledging the Polish version is most probably the most accurate and if you think I wouldn't want to learn more about the game your wrong. This whole exercise it with the intent of learning about the game.

Maybe you didn't know but here in the US we had problems with false religious christan cults and zealots, you know the ones you guys kick out of EU cause they were F*cking nutz!
Puritans (iirc) burning women, here because they were accused of being Witches. These poor girls subjected to inhumane treatment at the hands of religious zealot men, being questioned for days without sleep till they just said anything to be left alone or make the pain stop, you know TortureD. While without fail there has never been a recorded case that had any verifiable proof, yet the women were killed.

I have listed previous examples of RL and GL statistical verifiable information on women, violence, men and male dominated social structures, even including an average of the chance it could be a woman fault, so I am not sure why your claiming logic.

fatBastard() · January 4, 2008

Ï think I see what you're doing now. You're taking what you see in the game and ONLY what you see in the game and base your reasoning on this. The problem with that approach is that, just like in real life, the rest of the world doesn't stand still when the Witcher is busy elsewhere. It may often appear that way in computer games, but not in The Witcher.

The mob didn't just come out of nowhere. They never do. A mob is like a stew. First you add one ingredient, then another, then some salt, then you stir it a bit, add some stuff, stir again, and slowly the brew heats up until it is finally boiling. In the game Abigail doesn't leave her hut and the Reverend stays at his church/house and Odo stays at his hut/garden but you have to see beyond that and picture this as a real village. Abigail may keep to herself but she still needs to go shopping and I'm sure she's received plenty of murmured insults and malicious stares over the weeks/months/years.

Had the Reverend been trying to be shadow leader that commands his flock but does so incognito through a second in command I could accept that Abigail wouldn't know who is behind the movement against her but seeing how the Reverend runs everything else, he has never tried to hide his contempt towards Abi and THAT is why it is impossible for Abigail NOT to know who and what the Reverend is and THAT is why it is inexcusable for her to deliver Alvin into his hands.

In the case of the "potion vendor" argument, you're again seeing this as a game mechanic instance rather than seeing it as a real world situation. The Witcher is not being questioned about what he intends to do with his new sword or where he acquired the assassin's dagger or Order Sword he is trying to sell because:

1) the developers knew that when you go shopping 50-100 times throughout the course of the game any unnecessary dialog would become an annoyance real quick. (Game argument)

2) Geralt is a Witcher. Any vendor already knows what a Witcher does with his weapons. (Real life argument)

3) YOU are playing Geralt, so it is up to YOU to decide how to use your equipment and though some of Geralt's close friends may (and do) question his methods, it is not up to no-name NPCs to do so. (both GL and RL argument)

If you go to the doctor and asks for a Cyanide pill you're going to receive a strange look and a no. If you go to a pharmacist asking for a Cyanide pill you'll be asked to hand over the prescription the doctor wouldn't give you. If you buy the ingredients to make your own Cyanide pill you can do so but even so most shops selling the stuff needed to make, let's say, Nitroglycerin will react if you purchase all of the base ingredients at once. Ilsa didn't ask to buy the ingredients for the poison, she bought the poison finished and ready to go.

Now, without going into too many details let's just say that having been there myself long ago I know that when you're seriously considering suicide you're NOT in a state of mind where you can nonchalant walse into the doctor's office and ask for the means to your own death without having a somewhat skilled doctor detect something is wrong (unless you're a clinical psychopath, but then again psychopaths usually don't kill themselves). People as desperate as Ilsa cannot help but send out signals that Abigail MUST have picked up and therefore must have KNOWN that Ilsa would use the poison to kill herself. But of course, if you only perceive Abigail as a vendor with a buy button and an inventory, then that explains why you defend her actions in this case.

By the way, let me just make this absolutely clear: I HATE religious fanatics with a passion that borders on fanaticism itself. I can't stand it when someone chooses an ancient text over their common sense on important issues. Consequently, it didn't take me more than 30 seconds to utterly dislike the Reverend and I knew I would never support anything the idiot said or did. Furthermore, yes I believe Odo killed his brother out of either jealousy or greed or possibly both and yes, I believe Haram (Harad? I can't remember his name right now) is out to get Abigail because she's got some information about him he doesn't want to be revealed and yes I do believe that Mikuel did indeed rape Ilsa (although given his rather limited mental capabilities I doubt he was the instigator). So NO I'm not in anyway defending their actions. However, even though, given the choice of who to stop, the serial killer or the drug lord, I would choose the serial killer any day of the week, that doesn't mean that the drug lord is without guilt. It just means that the alternative is worse.

For you to view women in general in such high esteem I would guess that either you haven't had much experience with the fairer sex or else that I must have had some real rotten luck with the ones I've encountered.

Women are no better or worse than men. Sure, they're much less prone to violence than men but on the other hand they're much more scheming and plotting than men usually are.

For the record: I thing Prima Junta's description of Abigail as a survivor with no or little concern about who gets hurt in the process is a pretty accurate depiction of the Abigail I saw in the game.

Acleacius · January 5, 2008

fatBastard() said:
The mob didn't just come out of nowhere

Damn, I am hungry!

Sure, Abby even mentions as such several times, talking about Alvin she mentioned they probably think she will eat him.

Had the Reverend been

I actually see the Reverend has run out of options of course there probably was an uneasy peace and the Reverend was clearly aware of the evil that had happened to Abby. Yet this is what people do whom leadership is based on lies, power and injustice blame others for their own incompetence. Why would anyone follow the Reverend if he says the Eternal Flame will protect them and it doesn't? The only way he could hold on to his power is to find someone to blame if he can't protect them. It's clear he got his leadership position based on lies, so like any conman he rides the high tide and blames others during the low tide. Hell he doesn't care if most of the mob dies as long as he remains in power.
Hell he never even brought up Abby till the Eternal Flame didn't work.

In the case of the "potion vendor" argument,

Thats fine, as long as we are clear your using a double standard.

People as desperate as Ilsa cannot help but send out signals that Abigail

Maybe you misunderstand me I am not trying to tell you or anyone how to play your game you can RP it anyway you want. However to claim Abby is evil as I mentioned in the first post and beyond, as something that is verifiable is not possible at least i have seen. You or I can read anything or everything we want into and yes I am going by what is in the game not why my, your or anyone's imagination can think of as that would be better in a thread called, "Abby Love her Hate her" or Abby the true story, a fan fiction.

I HATE religious fanatics with a passion that borders on fanaticism itself.

Yeah true they are at the very least, annoying little buggers!

the serial killer or the drug lord

Lol. drug lord.

For you to view women in general in such high esteem

Hehe, I doubt I am any luckier or unluckier with women than any other guy and just cause you can stand up for them in general, sure doesn't mean you understand them.

Boring statics below.

As I said those are really RL stats, while I don't pretend to speak for women you have to realize they have been/are subjected to a large degree all over the world.
As an example here in the US women still don't have equal rights, if it wasn't so sad I would laugh. During WW2 they proved they could do the same work as men for the most part and were mostly responsible for creating the middle class, which is what makes any nation strong. Fighting an uphill battle against sexist, racist, bigoted and deluded males (like the Reverend) every step of the way. First the bastards were in the democratic party till 1965 since then they moved to the republican party where they have resided every since.
The republican party has been undermining women with legislations since 1968 and the 12 remaining states needed to ratify women as Constitutionally Equal under the Equal Right Amendment are currently in the hands of southern racists republicans whom used to be southern racist democrats, iirc. Here is the cry/laugh part women have been voting for these fools, it's as if women have gone to sleep or lost it. :cries:

Honestly it's not really all their fault they have been propagandized, into many things due to the fascist/corporate media in this country. Most recently to two major attacks against women have been a phony attempt to privatize Social Security System and the Bankruptcy bill. Women are much more likely to live longer, be left with children after a divorce, care for elderly relatives, forced to file bankruptcy due to these and medical long term illnesses of the family members they as care for them,not to mention more likely to be in poverty the list is pretty endless.

I mentioned in this thread previously I used to teach women's and children's self defense, so I heard a few stories.
I have this silly little notion, that since women base most their decisions on social consciousness instead of egos like we guys, if they were equal the world might be a better place.

For the record: I thing Prima Junta's description of Abigail as a survivor with no or little concern about who gets hurt in the process

Sounds good as RL option, though I certainly couldn't see anything in the game that makes that case.

Jabberwocky · January 5, 2008

Let me just say that I think this thread has set a new record for longest pointless debates of all time...

Can ya'll stop posting already? 'Cause I'm getting tired of all the e-mail notifications!

Witcher Abby, evil? Say, what? :) Spoilers!

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